Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List - January 2002
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Our deepest thanks to Maxou Heintzen for this fabulous photograph, taken at Saint-Cloud near Paris in 1957 by an unknown photographer.
The following are the archives of the Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List, sponsored by Alden and Cali Hackmann of Olympic Musical Instruments.
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Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 11:22:30 -0000
From: george.swallow <george.swallow _at_ beechcottage98.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] Rapottenstein course
Simon Wascher
Thanks for the reference. I have extracted all the details but my German is
not good enough to deal with all of it.
Crossing the courtyard with a warm pullover, stout shoes and a reading
lamp (Schreibtischlampe) looks a bit of a puzzle. Perhaps Rob McConnell
would tell us where he plugged it in!
I will persevere with the decoding, as it does look interesting
George Swallow
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Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 11:41:30 -0800
From: Bob Mackie <rwmackie _at_ telus.net>
Subject: RE: [HG] Rapottenstein course
That lamp is powered by a hand crank, of course. And a dymaxion wheel
to save the energy, too, maybe.
Bob Mackie
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Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 23:45:49
From: Tricia Postle <tpostle _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] An Introduction, from Tricia Postle
Dear Hurdy-Gurdjeons,
As majordomo requests:
I am a poet and musician in Toronto, Canada. I have played hurdy-gurdy
for fifteen years, at times fairly seriously, now less. I'm crazy about
troubadour song. I'm slowly teaching myself two languages: Catalan
(easy) and Arabic (not easy). I study music: qanun (a
zither/dulcimer/koto/santour relative with quarter tones) and classical
western voice. I don't perform enough, although I do read poetry and
include music in my readings.
I'd be glad to correspond about modes, notation, or troubadours; I'll try
to read any romance language, although romanian might be tough.
May your wheels stay true in '02!
Tricia
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Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:38:16 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] An Introduction, from Tricia Postle
Hi Tricia. Did we meet at the Hurdy Gurdy Festival at Ft. flagler. Your
comments about Romanian rang a bell, but that might of been another
person. Welcome to you . Hearing more about the troubadours, especially
those of the female sex, will be very interesting indeed..
:-) Joan D'Andrea in Seattle
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Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:43:02 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Also from Rob
Help. Would somebody forward their copy of the pictures of Rob's Gurdy to
me. I accidentally deleted it from my "Keep for the Future" folder.
Waaaaaaa! Joan
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 09:57:35 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] An Introduction, from Tricia Postle
Hi Tricia!
MY... if you taught ur self Catalan you could go for Occitan
now..Most of the most beautiful cantigas were in occitan (Bernardo
de Ventadorn) and... you could visit Provenca as well as
Barcelona!!!!!!
How do you manage for the pronunciation?
I speak French (my native language) and Portuguese ( I lived in
Brazil many many years) and carried on with Spanish at work here in
the US. Well now I understand and read Italian, Catalan, Galician,
Esperanto,Madrileno,Castillano,Romanian and Ladino.(at a lesser
level though). So you could do it too, no kidding!!
I tried Breton since i sing Breton songs but i ll have to stick to
the phonetics of it.. too hard like gaelic and the likes...;0((..
Ginny
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 20:28:35 -0000
From: george.swallow <george.swallow _at_ beechcottage98.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] Also from Rob
Having looked at Rob's photos, I am amazed that it could all have been done
in a week, even with some preparations.
Could Rob tell us for those seriously interested:=
1. Did he hear any English (or American)spoken during the week?.
2. Did he ever manage to escape from the castle to look outside, and is
there anything to see? (My wife wants to come too)
3. What is already done when you get there? I recollect that it took me more
than a week just to make the sides of my key-box.
George Swallow
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 22:31:21 +0100
From: Wenceslao Martínez Calonge <wencesmc _at_ interacesso.pt>
Subject: [HG] OT: Some nice links for Tricia Postle
Hallo everybody:
-a nice link with Catalonian poems. (Don't try to begin with Ausiàs
March. He's hard even for Catalan speakers)
http://www.intercom.es/folch/poesia
-a nice link with medieval songs (mostly "oïl", but there are drops of
"oc")
http://perso.club-internet.fr/brassy/PartMed/Partmed.html
Hey, Ginny, where's the difference between Castillian and Madrileño? Is
it a punch like "Oxonian stuttering" ?
Are you sure there is only "one" Ladino? ;-D
Greetings,
Wenceslao Martínez Calonge
wencesmc _at_ interacesso.pt
http://www.interacesso.pt/~wencesmc (My pages: they mix Catalan,
Castillian, Portuguese and little drops of Mirandese)
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:10:17 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] OT: Some nice links for Tricia Postle
oops!!!!!l redundant i guess!!!LOLLLl typed too fast!!
Obrigada por os links!!!!
No not one ladino... but still vrey close... mostly familiar with
Portugal though..nice page u got! where do u live???
Ate logo irmao!!!
Ginny
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:32:23 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Hurdy Gurdys in the movies......... again.
It is not often that a Hurdy Gurdy or a Hurdy Gurdy player gets noticed
in the movies.
So go out and see the new movie called "The Shipping News".
If you stay to watch the end credits you will see a musicians credit for
" Hurdy Gurdy Nigel Eaton"
I guess if I listened to the sound track carefully again I might notice
where that wonderful sound is in the movie. It must be buried in the
music track. Actually the movie and the sound track are rather good.
r.t.
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:59:38 -0000
From: frank vickers <frank _at_ vickhast.demon.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] Gurdy Workshops
Hi folks
UK news
Norwich 02 - 25 to 27 January 2002 will have some gurdy workshops with
Cliff Stapleton, some bagpipes with Jon Swayne, Mike York and Ian
Clabburn.
Loads of other workshops, concerts, dances etc...
If you want more information you can visit the N02 web-site from
www.vickhast.demon.co.uk or contact me off list.
Frank Vickers
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 07:43:31 -0500
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] Hurdy Gurdys in the movies......... again.
You can see more about the movie and hear soundtrack
selections at
http://www.miramaxhighlights.com/theshippingnews/index.html
I'd guess that's a gurdy on "Dutsi Jig".
Judith
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Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 16:47:25 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy Gurdys in the movies......... again.
Hello,
I know that Nigel Eaton plays in the soundtrack of "The Name of the
Rose", and I know that Matthias Loibner plays in the soundtrack of
"Schlafes Bruder"/"Brother of Sleep" but in bot cases the final usage of
the instruments is just samples of sound which are hardly recognized.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 10:52:00 -0400
From: Alison Gowan <acgowan _at_ freeuk.com>
Subject: [HG] Whirling Pope Joan
Can some one tell who the female singer is who plays in WPJ along with
Nigel Eaton? Also, does anyone know how many CDs they have put out and
where they are available (in NA preferably)?
Cheers, Alison
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 16:58:16 +0100
From: Melmoth the wanderer <pierre.amadio _at_ libertysurf.fr>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy Gurdys in the movies......... again.
Hi there.
> " Hurdy Gurdy Nigel Eaton"
To tell it simply, this guys just rocks :)
It's been some month now since i have heard one of his lp (panic at the
café). And it still one of my most heard lp.
I have heard he also had some stage expérience with led zepplin.
Have a nice day.
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Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 10:56:49 -0500
From: Allan Janus <allan.janus _at_ verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Whirling Pope Joan
I think it's Julie Murphy:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/folk/artist_database/pages/murphyjulie.shtml
Allan Janus
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Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 17:20:31 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Whirling Pope Joan
Hello,
its Julie Murphy and as far as I know "Spin" is the only CD they have as
a duo. But there are some very recomendable CDs of hers like with the
band "Fernhill" and like the Solo CD "Black Mountains Revisited" which
is one of my favorite CDs.
You will easylie be able to find out more about her by using some search
engine.
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 08:41:14 -0800 (PST)
From: David Darr <dsdarr _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Whirling Pope Joan
If it is Julie Murphy then I would recommend the
(mostly) Welsh-language band Fernhill for which she is
the vocalist. Absolutely stunning material.
David
=====
David Darr -- Seattle, WA.
mailto: dsdarr _at_ yahoo.com
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:41:44 -0500
From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Whirling Pope Joan
As someone else pointed out, it is indeed Julie Murphy. She has
appeared on a number of recordings, mostly for Beautiful Jo records
in Oxford,
http://www.bejo.co.uk/bejo/html/welcome.htm
most notably in the group Fernhill, also featuring her husband
(sorry, guys, at least I _think_ they're still married), Welsh
bagpiper Ceri Rhys Matthews, and accordionist Andy Cutting.
As far as I know, WPJ was a one-off.
JR
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:44:56 -0500
From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com>
Subject: [HG] nigel eaton
Yes he recorded with Jimmy Page "quarter"" awsome!
I knew him with Blowsabella in the 80's doing some great puppet show as well
did nt he win some contest at saint chartier some 10years ago?? nice chap
at any rate
Ginny
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:06:13 -0800
From: Bob Mackie <rwmackie _at_ telus.net>
Subject: [HG] Blowzabella CDs available in Canada
Hi all,
At A & B Sound online (www.absound.ca) Blowzabella has four
CD's listed. They are all subject to special order, although
"Vanilla" seems to in stock, judging from the more complete
discography available. Vanilla samples sounded rather
jammish and complex, (or rather if you will, confused) which
is not a bad thing. Which one of the following CD's has
the best cuts of Nigel Eaton?
Artist Title Price US$/Cdn$ Dist. Catalog #
BLOWZABELLA WALL OF SOUND $15.30/$22.49 PHD OSMOCD005
BLOWZABELLA BOBBITYSHOOTY $15.30/$22.49 PHD OSMOCD015
BLOWZABELLA RICHER DUST $15.30/$22.49 PHD OSMOCD010
BLOWZABELLA VANILLA $12.58/$18.49 FUS GLCD3050
TIA
Bob Mackie
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 14:53:02 -0500
From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Blowzabella CDs available in Canada
Well, he wasn't in the band for Bobbityshooty, so that would leave
the other two...
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Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 17:08:20 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Blowzabella ,
I feel that " Richer Dust " and " Vanilla " are the ones that
have the Eatonish Spirit <g> , Do not judge the CD Vanilla by the
firts tune " Spaghettti panic " , the rest of the album is somewhat
different .
Bobbitty Shooty is the one with the Swaynish Spirit <g>
Still in Blowzabellica facts , what happened to Samuel Palmer
who was the first Blow . HG player ?
Henry
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Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 00:54:35 +0000
From: Alison Gowan <acgowan _at_ freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Blowzabella CDs available in Canada
I like Wall of Sound best for my own two bits worth, but then again, I
love them all. Thanks everyone for Julie Murphy's name,
Alison.
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Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 23:27:14 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Whirling Pope Joan
As far as I know, as John said, "Spin" was Whirling Pope Joan's only
release. I don't know if it's still available. There is a web
distribution outlet which lists
it (http://www.soundcity2000.com/cd_az/cd10/T1048.HTML#W056517), but that
doesn't mean it's available. They list hundreds of thousands of
recordings, but they don't stock them; when they get an order, they have
the appropriate supplier drop-ship the disc directly to the customer. You
could wait months, and still not get your cd.
Why not check with Nigel himself? I think there's contact information for
him at his dad's website (http://www.hurdygurdy.farmcom.net/).
~ Matt
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies
7 Grove Street
Camden, Maine 04843
phone/fax: 207-236-9576
email: gurdy _at_ midcoast.com
website: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 23:05:02 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Blowzabella ,
I would say that Alison and Henry are both right (funny thing how that
works with opinions!).
I agree with Henry that "Richer Dust" and "Vanilla" capture more of the
Nigel Eaton hurdy-gurdy style we've become familiar with, but they're a bit
more recent, aren't they? Vanilla is by far the most polished and produced
sounding, but there's a lot of Nigel's hurdy-gurdy and they did a nice job
of recording the instrument.
"Wall of Sound" has some great stuff, and though the recording quality
isn't the best, they did capture some wonderful energy which isn't as
present on the others; many of the tracks were recorded "live" (no
overdubs) direct to two track. How could anyone listen to the instrumental
"Roger De Coverly/Trip o'er Tweed" and not want to play the hurdy-gurdy
with this band!?!
my two cents...
~ Matt
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 08:33:27 -0000
From: frank vickers <frank _at_ vickhast.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [HG] Whirling Pope Joan
Hi folks
I said some time ago that I was starting a CD distribution outlet here in
the UK. The first CD I got was WPJ. I've got 10 of them sitting here on my
desk. If anyone wants them in whatever part of the world I'm sure we can
come to some arrangement - I haven't set up banking facilities yet though.
Frank
Oh yes and Blowzabella are playing in London Cecil Sharp House on Saturday
12 Jan.
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:18:26 +0000
From: Dave Holland <dave _at_ biff.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] Blowzabella ,
On Thu, Jan 03, 2002 at 11:05:02PM -0500, Matthew Szostak wrote:
> "Wall of Sound" has some great stuff, and though the recording quality
> isn't the best, they did capture some wonderful energy which isn't as
[...]
Is the "B to A of Blowzabella" recording still available anywhere? I
believe it was a cassette (in the old days before CDs...)
Thanks,
Dave
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Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 07:38:14 -0500
From: Beverly Woods <tradmusic _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Blowzabella CDs available in Canada
I'm not sure of the logistics of ordering from them for Canadians, but
Half.com lists numerous copies of "Vanilla" for $7-9. (First time customers
can get $5 off a $10 order with various coupon codes; looks like CITI88 is
current this month.)
Beverly
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 18:51:06 +0100
From: Wenceslao Martínez Calonge <wencesmc _at_ interacesso.pt>
Subject: Re: [HG] Workshop with Anne-Lise Foy
Hallo everybody:
Anne-Lise Foy held a workshop for the AIZ (Asociación Ibérica de la Zanfona)
last year in Casavieja (Ávila, Spain).
You can see some photos here by clicking at the end of the AIZ section.
http://www.zanfona.com/
Actually, I was in the Arabic lute workshop, but people there told that
Anne-Lise gave lots of challenging, hard exercises and that she has a very
precise, right hand. Some said they had got stuff to train for a year.
AIZ organizes these hurdy-gurdy workshops twice a year (with some other
instruments as well). You can walk through the photos of old workshops with
Lefeuvre, Clastrier, Chabenat, Eaton,...
Best regards,
Wenceslao Martínez Calonge (Coimbra, Portugal)
wencesmc _at_ interacesso.pt
http://www.interacesso.pt/~wencesmc
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 12:21:15 +0100
From: René Meeuws <meeuws _at_ msmp.demon.nl>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy Gurdys in the movies......... again.
> I know that Nigel Eaton plays in the soundtrack of "The Name of the Rose",
> but the final usage of the instruments is just samples of sound which are
hardly recognized.
>
> Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
This is certainly not true! If you look at the credit titles, you will see
the name of Kurt Reichmann, HG builder in Frankfurt, Germany. I know,
somewhere in the mid-eighties in a studio in München, his son Jens and his
daughter Silke played a whole day separate HG sounds, which were sampled by
James Horner, the composer of the music for The Name of the Rose.
And indeed, with some imagination, during the film you can hear sometimes
something that sounds like a kind of HG.
Greetings from Holland,
René Meeuws
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Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 10:01:08 -0800
From: Dean Cully <dfcully _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy Gurdys in the movies......... again
And yet again?
The trailer for the new American film "Monster's Ball" has what I'm 98
percent sure is the sound of an HG, fairly prominently (to the trained ear).
Whether it's in the actual film score remains unknown and doubtful.
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Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 14:45:45 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] More from Rob
Subject: Re: [HG] Also from Rob
George:
I will answer your questions as best I can manage. It seems like so long ago
now even though it was only a few months ago. Be warned that I am a bit long
winded when I get going.
1. English
All the instructors spoke excellent English, about half the people at the
course
spoke English reasonably well and the rest I think understood it fairly well
even though they said little. Everyone was very good about accommodating
me and
I did not feel like I was imposing too badly. A lot of the tehnical stuff was
self explanatory anyway through demonstration, and I would just observe and
then
wait patiently for the details in English when the instructor had time if I
needed anything. Several of the people at the course (especially Ernst) also
took me under their wing and explained things to me as well when I looked lost.
The only time it felt awkward was in group situations when everyone got going
and we could not follow what was being said. We could also not join in on the
singing. A lot of times in these situations someone would translate for us so
it was not too bad. I had considered taking a crash course in German as we
have
a lot of people with German extraction here in Wpg, but I don't think it would
have helped. I am sure you have heard the old saying that America and England
(or Canada) are two countries separated by a common language? They say the
same
about Germany and Austria. One lady was there from Germany and she could not
follow the German too well anyway.
2. Yes I got out of the castle a couple of times. Once we went somewhere
(name
escapes me) to a baroque music performance in a fantastic cathedral; organ,
Lute, violin, cello. Unfortunately I fell asleep (even though the seats were
very hard!!) which was not so bad but then I started snoring which got some
dirty looks and some amused ones as well. Fortunately I was not the only one
sleeping. We also got out for dinner once to a local restaurant. You have to
be prepared to work hard though while at the course. There were good meals at
lunch and beer at lunch, dinner and in the evening and several nights we had a
bit of a party, so it was not all work.
My wife came with me as well and spent the week. She spent some time helping me
when I got behind and quite a bit of time reading, but we also had a car so she
went galavanting off by herself to sight see most days. There is quite a
bit to
see within a 2-3 hour radius around Rappottenstein which did not seem like much
of a drive to us. She would have loved it if she had someone to go with her.
Let me know if you do plan to go, maybe we will go back (mostly kidding, but it
would be really tempting). The driving was very easy. There are a lot of
places to go walking and hiking, but she did not do too much of this as she was
a bit concerned about getting lost. If we went again she would likely be
bolder. The area around the castle is absolutely beautiful, but a bit remote.
Without a car it would be difficult to do much as bus service is not that
great. We spent 4 weeks in Europe (2 in Austria, 2 in Italy, 2 days in
Amsterdam) around this course so it was almost pleasant to be able to have this
relaxed week at the castle. (relaxed for my wife that is!!!). We still both
feel it was the best week of our holiday.
3) What is done when you get there?
Let me see if I can remember
-the bodies (lute and flat back) were assembled with braces. They
needed to be sanded and holes for the wheel drilled, kerfing glued in, seams
taped, head stock part trimmed, etc The lute back had to be shaped quite a bit
as well.
-the tops were bookmatched and joined, but had to be thicknessed,
cut to
shape, recesses and sound holes cut out, finish sanded, glued onto the top,
trimmed flush and purfling put on. The purfling for the vielle was
prefabricated and just had to be installed.
-the tangent box pieces were prefabricated and had to be finished and
glued together, the lid had to made from scratch, but there were pieces that
were pretty close that could be used, hinges had to be countersunk and
installed. Felt had to be installed in the box for the tangents
-the tangent keys had the bars already made, they had to be
drilled for
the tangents, and the key tops had to be made as well. Some parts were
prefabbed here, but the tops were not. Then the keys had to be fitted to the
box.
-the tangents themselves were roughed out but had to be trimmed and
finished, the pegs tapered and rounded. Then they had to be installed.
-The headstock pieces were prefabbed for the flat back, but we
made them
from scratch for the lute back. The tuning pegs were turned round and the
finials had to be finished, the keys shaped flat and finished. The holes
had to
be drilled and reamed to fit and the pegs seated with pumice and soap. All the
holes for the stings had to be drilled and shaped. All of this of course
had to
be assembled and glued onto the body.
-The tail piece was pre-fabbed but you had to bend and glue on a
veneer,
drill for strings and mountings and install on the body, install violin tuners
on the melody strings.
-all the bridges were pre-fabbed and had to be just glued on (finish
scraped off first) then tuned for the string height etc
-The wheel cover had to be made and bent to shape by hand. I am
not that
happy with mine, and would like to redo it someday.
-The wheel itself was pre-fabbed with the bushing, along with all the
metal bits. We had to do something to the crank but I don't remember what. We
had to drill for the shaft, install bushings, the wheel had to be installed,
trued and polished. Nupi was very good at this.
-Strap buttons and string pegs had to be all drilled and installed
-had to apply the finish, which as I said before was shellac
sprayed on
with a pretty simple set up but the finish had to be rubbed out by hand. A
simple finish really but all we had time for.
Nupi and Simone work at a school in Hallstatt which has some very good
resources. I believe they took advantage of this to use CNC machines to pre-fab
some of the parts. I think the result for the cost of the course and the time
is quite acceptable. The instruments produced are certainly not up to
professional Luthier standards but I am pretty happy. They were also
unbelievably good with their hands. I believe where they teach is very "old
school" emphasis on craftsmanship. So not a lot of jigs or setups. Also
a lot
of "drill this hole here at this angle" kind of thing and everything would line
up.
One comment is that I was the only one making the Lute back and wished in the
end that I was making the same HG as everyone else, even though I really like
the lute back. It was difficult being the odd man out because you could not
always learn from others mistakes or successes. I would seriously consider
staying with the rest of the pack next time. Also the instruments seem to be
graduating over the years towards simpler instruments in order to finish them
without un-due stress. The first HG Ernst made was more complicated then mine,
but he said it was very stressful to get it done on time.
If you decide to go let me know and I will give you some tips about what to
take
regarding tools etc. Also it was difficult to transport the HG after the course
(through Italy and other places), but not impossible.
Hope this helps. Do advise if you intend to go. I would be very interested in
hearing about it. The instructors would be tickled as well. I know Ernst is
going back as well, so he would be a good resource. And who knows, maybe I
would just hop a plane and go too!!!
Rob McConnell
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Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 14:46:39 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Sharon
From: sharon berman <duodrone _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy Gurdys in the movies......... again.
Have you all already mentioned the hurdy-gurdy in
"Naughty Marietta"--1935 w/Jeannette MacDonald and
Nelson Eddy? There's a scene where the gypsies play
beneath the balcony and one woman is playing one. Fun
movie if we heave political correctness out the
window.
Sharon
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 15:01:34 -0800
From: Bob Mackie <rwmackie _at_ telus.net>
Subject: [HG] Where does one get sycamore?
I have noticed that many HG's are constructed of sycamore, some with
spruce tonewood tops.
Can anyone explain why Sycamore is desired over say, maple or walnut
or jacaranda? I understand that in the 18th century, perhaps mahogany
was quite rare in Europe.
Where does one get this sycamore, and is it of a particular variety?
How long does it have to be dried or cured? Does the density and the
elasticity of the particular sycamore have much to do with the choice?
TIA
Bob Mackie
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 23:47:27 -0000
From: george.swallow <george.swallow _at_ beechcottage98.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] Where does one get sycamore?
Please! Sycamore is a rude word !
Maple, preferably the slow growing kind, is the wood you use for violins and
other instruments.
Sycamore is the rampant weed that sends winged seeds everywhere, sprouting
on the lawn and everywhere else, and requiring vigilant attention to keep it
in check. Good for bonfires but nothing else. I hate it.
George Swallow
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Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 17:41:23 -0600
From: Patricia A. Lipscomb <hurdygurdygirl _at_ molehaven.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Hurdy Gurdys in the movies......... again.
Someone may have already mentioned this one without my catching it (after being
out of town I had to delete a lot of messages at warp speed) so at the risk of
duplication I'll mention that I saw the movie "The Shipping News" last night and
noticed among the credits Nigel Eaton for hurdy gurdy. I did not actually hear
it while watching the movie so it may have been short (and sweet, of course). In
any case, it was a great movie.
Trish
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 18:25:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Dennis Sherman <dennis_sherman _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Where does one get sycamore?
> Please! Sycamore is a rude word !
>
> Maple, preferably the slow growing kind, is the wood
> you use for violins and
> other instruments.
Not exactly... In the instrument collection at the
Victoria and Albert, there are a number of violins and
hurdy gurdies with bodies of "fiddleback sycamore".
Identification problems arise because sycamore and
maple are not the same in the USA as they are in
Europe. I was in England this fall, staying with a
forest manager, and we had this interesting
discussion.
In the USA, sycamore is Platanus occidentalis, known
in London as the Plane tree. Maple is one of Acer
saccharum, Acer nigrum, Acer rubrum, Acer saccharinum.
In the UK, sycamore is Acer pseudoplatanus -- note
"Acer", which makes it a member of the same genus as
the North American maples.
http://www.rfs.org.uk/totm/sycamore.htm is one site
that gives more information.
http://www.woodbin.com/ref/wood/ is another.
Wood from the "Acer" genus is all potential instrument
or furniture material. (Or floor in the music room in
Buckingham Palace -- something like 47 different woods
involved, and the fiddleback sycamore is used as a
border.)
=====
--
Dennis Sherman Chicago, IL
dennis_sherman _at_ sherman-erickson.org
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 12:48:15 -0000
From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Where does one get sycamore?
Quite right too! Sycamore was introduced into Britain by the Romans and has
been used as an ornamental wood here ever since. It has a lovely fine grain
and finish as fine as you could wish with a beautiful pale yellow colour. In
the states you would use Maple, in Europe they used Sycamore. Both are
really interchangeable as they are the same genus and have similar
properties. Perhaps we should call it English Maple?
Colin Hill
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Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 14:23:17 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Where does one get sycamore?
Hello,
Using the
http://dict.leo.org/
I learned that the term 'sycamore' does mean at least two different
kinds of tree:
English: German:
sycamore [bot.] amerikanische Sykomore Lat.: Platanus occidentalis
sycamore [bot.] abendländische Platane Lat.: Platanus occidentalis
sycamore fig [bot.] der Maulbeerfeigenbaum Lat.: Ficus sycomorus
sycamore fig [bot.] die Sykomore Lat.: Ficus sycomorus
sycamore tree [bot.] die Platane
sycamore maple [bot.] der Bergahorn Lat.: Acer pseudoplatanus
sycamore [Brit.][bot.] der Bergahorn Lat.: Acer pseudoplatanus
so 'sycamore' can be used as a word for 'Bergahorn (Acer
pseudoplatanus)' what is a close relative of 'maple' (Ahorn/ Acer
saccharum) AND as a word for 'Platane (Platanus occidentalis)' which are
different species: Acer vs. Platanus.
'Bergahorn/Acer pseudoplatanus' is the one that is used for
instrument-making (as is 'Ahorn/Acer saccharum').
regards
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 07:26:02 -0800
From: Bob Mackie <rwmackie _at_ telus.net>
Subject: RE: [HG] Where does one get sycamore?
Dear all,
Thanks so much for doing all this homework. I my case,
being North American, the best indiginent hardwood for
any future HG construction use would be the (Rock or
Birds Eye?) Maple, as the Sycamore Maple (PsuedoPlane)
is not freely available here.
Is there anyone out there with recommendations for the
best choice from all the Maple types?
(yes, I am stretching this string, rather than steaming
and bending the wood)
cheers
Bob Mackie
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Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 10:12:38 -0600
From: Rob McConnell <robrmcc _at_ mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Where does one get sycamore?
Bob:
There is some nice quartersawn sycamore on ebay right now if you are
interested.
Rob McC
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 10:07:56 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] From Sharon
There's a nice scene in "The Three Musketeers".
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:32:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Dennis Sherman <dennis_sherman _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] Where does one get sycamore?
--- Bob Mackie <rwmackie _at_ telus.net> wrote:
> [...]
> being North American, the best indiginent hardwood
> for
> any future HG construction use would be the (Rock or
> Birds Eye?) Maple, as the Sycamore Maple
When you go to a hardwood lumberyard (or order online)
you'll probably see the maple divided into hard and
soft, with the pieces with figure held out and sold
separately for a higher price. The different kinds of
figure (grain patterns) have names, such as birdseye,
fiddleback, tiger, and so on, but I don't believe the
figure has any particular acoustic effect, only
visual.
Anyone that does instruments (as opposed to furniture,
which is mostly what I do with wood) have a different
opinion?
I believe that what you really want for structural and
acoustic purposes is anything sold as hard maple, and
if you want to pay extra for nice figure, go ahead.
=====
--
Dennis Sherman Chicago, IL
dennis_sherman _at_ sherman-erickson.org
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 22:38:19 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Itialian music concert in Moncalieri
Just in case you happen to be in the area, you might want to stop by and
see Maurizio Martinotti and his band called DÒNA BÈLA.
I saw them last summer in Lyon and they were great. For those of you that
might not no it,. Maurizio was a vielle student of Pierre Imbert and
played in the great Italian Piedmont band called La Ciapa Rusa.
r.t.
.........................
from http://www.musictrad.org/concerts/index.html
Mercredi 9 janvier 2002 : MONCALIERI (Italie)BALLADES DU PIÉMONT A LA
PROVENCE avec l'ensemble DÒNA BÈLA : Renat Sette (chant), Maurizio
Martinotti (chant, vielle à roue, mandole), Sergio Caputo (violon, voix),
Enrico Negro (guitare, mandole, voix), Jean-Louis Ruf (mandoloncelle,
percussions, voix).
Théâtre Matteotti "Cultura e musica", 21h
Renseignements 33 4 94 80 75 01
www.ballades.net
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:12:44 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] Low G melody string
Hi list
I'm here again with the first question of the year:
What kind of string do you use as low G 345-350mm
chanterelle?
According to "hg set up and maintenance" it should be
a 17 1/4 (very strong) silver on gut G for viola, but
I had that string broken far before the D.....so I
tried a D viola string instead and it played "well"
at the SAME g of the bare gut 0.94 string only.
Is it just another reason to be a baroque player
only?....:o)
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 01:15:09 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: RE: [HG] Where does one get sycamore?
It's really best to buy tonewood in person, so that you can see, touch, and
tap. (If you're a certain wood dealer we know, you also taste sometimes,
but I've never done that...)
We're using Western big-leafed maple (Acer macrophyllum) for most of the
maple parts of our instruments. This is sometimes sold as "Oregon
Maple". We use sugar maple (Acer saccharum) or black maple (Acer nigrum)
for the bridges, ears, and tangents. Both of these are sold as "Hard
Maple". Red and silver maple are sold as "Soft Maple".
>When you go to a hardwood lumberyard (or order online)
>you'll probably see the maple divided into hard and
>soft, with the pieces with figure held out and sold
>separately for a higher price. The different kinds of
>figure (grain patterns) have names, such as birdseye,
>fiddleback, tiger, and so on, but I don't believe the
>figure has any particular acoustic effect, only
>visual.
Yes and no. The presence and strength of a particular figure is often
dependent on the orientation of the grain, which definitely does have an
effect of the sound. So being able to see a certain figure lets you know
that the grain is oriented a certain way.
>Anyone that does instruments (as opposed to furniture,
>which is mostly what I do with wood) have a different
>opinion?
>
>I believe that what you really want for structural and
>acoustic purposes is anything sold as hard maple, and
>if you want to pay extra for nice figure, go ahead.
I know it can be done, but bigleaf is hard enough to bend in hurdy-gurdy
sized pieces that I'd hate to do it with hard maple. It's a tool-buster,
too. YMMV.
Alden
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Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 01:24:21 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Low G melody string
Marcello says:
>What kind of string do you use as low G 345-350mm
>chanterelle?
The recommendation from Pierre was the 733M, Savarez Corelli Crystal Viola
G string, medium tension. We tried these and liked them, but sometimes
find the tension is a little low, because the string buzzes a little
against the tangents. For this reason, Cali prefers the 733F, which is the
high tension version. Pierre said this tension was too high for his
instrument/style, but it sounds good on Cali's vielle.
Pierre also said he had tried all sorts of other viola strings, and the
Savarez were the only good ones. (That's an expensive experiment!!)
>Is it just another reason to be a baroque player
>only?....:o)
Yup. No extra chanters, no weird tunings... ;-)
Alden
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:32:59 -0000
From: peter.j.hughes _at_ bt.com
Subject: RE: [HG] Low G melody string
> The recommendation from Pierre was the 733M, Savarez Corelli
> Crystal Viola
> G string, medium tension. We tried these and liked them, but
> sometimes
> find the tension is a little low, because the string buzzes a little
> against the tangents.
Nigel Eaton has been recommending these for quite a while too, but on my
gurdy I get this buzzing problem occasionally.
> For this reason, Cali prefers the 733F,
> which is the
> high tension version. Pierre said this tension was too high for his
> instrument/style, but it sounds good on Cali's vielle.
I've been meaning to try one for ages - thanks for the tip.
Peter.
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Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 14:11:12 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Low G melody string
Hello,
Marcello: Sorry that you broke your viola g putting it on the
instrument, but you should concider that it was *not* the string tension
at g pitch that broke the string.
A viola has a usual open string lenght of 340 mm to 370 mm so at the
pitch the tension on a hurdy gurdy is about the same as on the viola.
If there is a difference, the tension is a bit lower on the hurdy gurdy
since the open string lenght is on the short side (from the intended):
the shorter the lenght the higher the pitch (this is why sometimes
people tend to use high tension viola strings).
Alden & Cali Hackmann:
> Marcello says:
> >What kind of string do you use as low G 345-350mm
> >chanterelle?
my choisse:
Thomastik Infeld viola g "Spirocore" (S20), medium or strong, depending
on the instrument. The silver wound (S20A) sounds better (to me) than
the chrome-steel wound. But surely this is not 'authentic', since it
uses a metal spiral core (as the Corelli Chrystal is'nt: its a
nylon-filament core string).
> The recommendation from Pierre was the 733M, Savarez Corelli Crystal Viola
> G string, medium tension. We tried these and liked them, but sometimes
> find the tension is a little low, because the string buzzes a little
> against the tangents. For this reason, Cali prefers the 733F, which is the
> high tension version. Pierre said this tension was too high for his
> instrument/style, but it sounds good on Cali's vielle.
>
> Pierre also said he had tried all sorts of other viola strings, and the
> Savarez were the only good ones. (That's an expensive experiment!!)
I dislike this hymns on the savarez ones. The savarez strings are surely
good, but definitely there are other products on the market which
perform as well or maybe better on a given instrument.
If I remember right for example Riccardo Delfino uses the Thomastik ones
for his baroque instrument and Matthias Loibner some Pirastro gut brand
for viola.
I also saw strings from Kuerschner succsessfully used for this tuning.
I belive that the concentration on the Corelli Chrystal has several
reasons:
* As Savarez is a well known guitar string maker, distribution is on
hand nearly everywhere on earth.
* The Corelli Chrystals fit well to a certain kind of 'traditional
style' constructed hurdy gurdies, which were not constructed for low g
strings on first hand.
* Savarez is french, so for the french makers and players its an obvious
choisse, and we all know about the strong influence by french players
and their playing style (and sound ideal) onto hurdy gurdy playing in
general.
* last but not least Nigel Eaton recomended or recomends them. So:
'whats good for NIGEL EATON must be good for the rest of the world'.
> >Is it just another reason to be a baroque player
> >only?....:o)
>
> Yup. No extra chanters, no weird tunings... ;-)
I have not seen a hurdy gurdy - copy or original - which did sound
better with the g (low) tuning.
To me the viola g (pitch) does not fit well for this french eighteenth
century hurdy gurdy compositions. I have heard music from this aera
composed for instruments with lower notes than g' performed on hurdy
gurdy and it did sound great (on a 'modern' copy of a eighteenth
century hurdy gurdy; lowest note d' = pitch c' ; in fact the French
(Parisian ?) eighteenth century g' was more at the pitch of a f' I
learned).
So there were reasons why they notated hurdy gurdy music with a
G-soprano clef (g' on the lowest line) and not a tenor (C) clef.
Musicans in this time *did* know very well how to put on paper what they
wanted to sound.
regards
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 07:58:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] Where does one get sycamore?
--- Dennis Sherman <dennis_sherman _at_ yahoo.com> wrote:
> if you want to pay extra for nice figure, go ahead.
I agree, but bear in mind that the "clear" (as opposed
to figured) grain bends better.
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 08:48:20 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Itialian music concert in Moncalieri
Which area RT. :-) Joan
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Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 18:24:12 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Itialian music concert in Moncalieri
Joan:
>
> Which area RT. :-) Joan
some thosands of kilometers nearer than Vancouver. ;-)
(still a thousand or so away)
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:04:10 -0800
From: Joan <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Itialian music concert in Moncalieri
Hi Simon. Sorry, can't make it this time, I'm out of commuter miles. :-)
Joan
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 18:41:07 -0000
From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] Low G melody string
Are we talking a G an octave below the two unison Gs I use with plain gut
1.00 mm supplied by Cali & Alden ?
Is this the same pitch as the plain gut G mouche 1.3mm but much louder ?
My sounding length is 345 mm
What is the musical effect of the lower octave?
Also what could I use in plain gut for an G an octave higher on one
chanterelle ?
I can imagine the musical brightness caused by this, much like adding a 4
foot stop to an 8 foot maual on the organ.
Graham Whyte
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Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 23:42:54 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Low G melody string
Hello,
graham:
>
> Are we talking a G an octave below the two unison Gs I use with plain gut
> 1.00 mm supplied by Cali & Alden ?
> Is this the same pitch as the plain gut G mouche 1.3mm but much louder ?
Yes. To say it in clear technical terms: the G you (and most HG player)
usually use is the g' (in german terms, maybe someone can supply us with
the english and the american equivalent) its pitch is 391 to 396 Hz (at
a'=440Hz) depending on the intonation system one uses.
the 'low' G we are talking about is the g (195 to 198 Hz) which is the
lowest open string of a standard violin tuning it equals the g of the
standard viola tuning.
And the 'mouche' of a standard G/C hurdy gurdy tuning
so a standard G/C gurdy is tuned to the following pitches:
drones:
G ~ 98 Hz (G - second lowest - string of the cello)
c ~ 131 Hz (c - lowest - string of the viola)
g ~ 196 Hz (g - lowest - string of the violin ) => mouche
trompette:
c'/d' ~ 262/294 Hz (d' - second lowest - string of the violin)
g' + g' ~ 392 + 392 Hz
> My sounding length is 345 mm
> What is the musical effect of the lower octave?
you can use the low string alternating with the high one as a low
register or use both at the same time and play in octave parallels which
gives a richer sound.
> Also what could I use in plain gut for an G an octave higher on one
> chanterelle ?
I doubt there is any gut string that could stand the tension at the low
diameter needed. Usually if a high octave tuning is required a d' d''
octave tuning is used (294Hz + 588 Hz). The plain gut string used for
this high d'' has a diameter from 0.65 mm to 0.72 mm or a violin e''
string is used.
If for some reason g'' as open string is required I would try something
like a 0.5 mm nylgut string. Nylgut is a very nice (and cheap)
nylon-related plastic string that is used to replace gut on early music
instruments. You can get it from viola da gamba makers or directly from
http://www.aquilacorde.com/ind.htm .
> I can imagine the musical brightness caused by this, much like adding a 4
> foot stop to an 8 foot maual on the organ.
hm. how far away did you say live your neighbours ? ;-)
I belive that a range of g' to g''' or in D d'' to d'''' is high enough.
The hurdy gurdy does not lack the high notes it lacks the low ones: this
is where this topic on low g strings originates from (my lowest note on
my hurdy gurdy keyboard is G (98 Hz) lowest drone C (65 Hz).
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:40:02 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] Low G melody string
--- graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk> wrote :
> Also what could I use in plain gut for an G an
> octave higher on one
> chanterelle ?
> I can imagine the musical brightness caused by this
...no, you can't....
Are you going to play for bats and dogs? :o).
Seriously: I think is impossible to tune in high G a
gut string.
I did it "several" years ago using nylon string, but
the sound was terrible.
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:37:00 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Low G melody string
Hello Marcello,
Here is what I found to sound good on my alto (36.5cm) HG. Like Alden says,
you might want to go up to a heavier (Stark) version for your 35cm HG.
1) Corelli Crystal Sol-G-3 viola string (733M) This string is warm and loud.
Synthetic
core. Hardly any buzzing on 36.5 HG.
2) Pirastro Aricore G-3 viola string (#4263). Also wound on synthetic core.
Not as full a
sound as the Corelli Crystal but pleasant and stable.
A string that I did not like was the Pirastro Obligato (also synthetic)
Bought but not yet tried is the Pirastro Tonica. I can let you know how it
sounds later. I will also try the Thomastic Spirocore now that it has been
recommended by Simon. I like the Thomastic Dominant cello strings as
bourdons. And for the normal g' chanter I have been quit pleased with the
Kurschner CD 5082 (or CD 5085 for a bit more volume) Catline twisted gut.
You would probably use the CD 5085 or CD 5088, available from
http://www.kuerschner-saiten.de/
Here is an interesting link giving someone's opinion on the sound qualities
of various strings (on
violas).http://www.ifshinviolins.com/strings.html#QUALITY
Regards,
Theo
> According to "hg set up and maintenance" it should be
> a 17 1/4 (very strong) silver on gut G for viola, but
> I had that string broken far before the D.....so I
> tried a D viola string instead and it played "well"
> at the SAME g of the bare gut 0.94 string only.
I am surprised the g viola string broke when you only tuned it up to d. Are
you sure you didn't try to tune it up to d', a octave above?
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Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 18:02:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Dennis Sherman <dennis_sherman _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] Where does one get sycamore?
--- Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
wrote:
>[...]
> We're using Western big-leafed maple (Acer
> macrophyllum) for most of the
> maple parts of our instruments. This is sometimes
Oddly enough, the current issue of "Wood" magazine (a
US based magazine for woodworker hobbyists,
http://www.woodmagazine.com) just arrived today. The
"Wood Anecdote" column features this wood.
=====
--
Dennis Sherman Chicago, IL
dennis_sherman _at_ sherman-erickson.org
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Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 08:34:19 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] Low G melody string (again)
Alden, Simon and Theo
Thanks a lot for your reply.
> I am surprised the g viola string broke when you
> only tuned it up to d. Are
> you sure you didn't try to tune it up to d', a
> octave above?
Of course I'm sure....it sounded strange to me too
and, since the problem was not my gurdy, I can only
think that:
1) the string was faulty
2) they picked up "another" string ....
I'll try again according to your suggestion.
I'd like to have a low chanterelle to play together
with the usual G chanterelle when I play "other" music
with "other" musicians louder than my usual "baroque"
friends.
When I play baroque sonatas I never use the second
chanterelle.
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 21:42:47 +0100
From: Wolfgang Weichselbaumer <atelier _at_ weichselbaumer.cc>
Subject: Re[2]: [HG] Low G melody string
Hello Theo,
It´s interesting for me to hear about your good experiences with the
Corelli Crystal Sol-G-3 on the alto, because Matthias Loibner wanted
to try it but it was not available at that time.
I really like the Obligato on the deep c (under the g you are talking
about). It´s not the easierst string to handle, but if you have it, it
really sounds powerfull.
Do you have any experiences how the Corelli works in this tuning?
The Thomastik Spirocore is a good choice to play outdoor.
It´s a technically perfect string for a really good price, but you
don´t have so many possibilities to form your own sound while playing.
With the Thomastik Dominant cello take care to take the shorter ones
(1/8 or 1/2).
Usually I prefer the Catline for my baroque instruments.
But I can imagine that you enjoy it on the alto.
Regards,
wolfgang
www.weichselbaumer.cc
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Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 14:05:13 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Low G melody string
Hi Wolfgang,
It's nice to see you on the list!
:-)-----Cali Hackmann
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Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 21:56:21 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: [HG] Wood selection: mahogany, maple or cedar?
I'm hoping you can all help me in deciding which woods to use for my
hurdy gurdy. I've pretty much decided on walnut back and sides, but am
undecided about the top. Should I choose mahogany or maple or Spanish
cedar? I would like to get a loud sound. I play primarily
Celtic-oriented music.
I'm sure any of the choices will be fine, and any help would be
appreciated.
Jake Conte
__
Castle Keep on mp3: www.mp3.com/castlekeep
English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh folk songs in a progressive style.
Callithumpian Band on mp3: www.mp3.com/callithumpianband
Rock band playing English, Irish, Scottish, Breton, Galician and Asturian
Music
UNDER CONSTRUCTION
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:44:58 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] note's name and pitch
This is an international list so sometimes is not so
easy to understand some subjects involving different
"measure" system.
In "western" world there are different ways of
indication for note's name and pitch .
The name:
-A, B(H), C, D, E, F, G - system is used in English
and German language regions.
-Do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, si- system is used in Italy
(I'm sure of that :o) and somewhere else...
Sometimes you can find the "old" UT instead of DO.
The "Italian" system cames from Guido d'Arezzo (? -
about 1050) that used a well known himn to San
Giovanni (Sancte Johannes) as guide to memorize the
pitch of the notes: -ut, re, mi, fa, sol, la- were the
first letters of each verse of the himn and the first
note of each verse was at the "correct" pitch in order
to make a "quite perfect" Dorian scale. Then they
"made" the "si" usig the last verse "S ante J ohanne"
(SJ) even if "San" was really a Sol (G) instead of a
Si...anyway.....
If you are curious I should have the music of the himn
somewhere, but you can find it in every good book
about "ancient" music.
The "translation" from a system to another is easy
since A = la (that is D = re, G = sol, C = do and so
on) so this is not a real problem.
Pitch identification is not so easy.
Here in Italy (and probably somewhere else) we use to
call the central C of the piano as "do3" (this is the
C between the two five-line staves, the upper one with
the G key, the bottom one with the F key).
The sequence of the same note in different octaves is:
do-1, do, do1, do2, do3 (central c), do4, do5 and so
on.
In UK (and probably in US too) they use a different
sequence:
C3, C2, C1, Cc (the central c), c', c" and so on.
In Germany (and probably in Austria, since Simon used
this system) they use:
C2, C1, Cc, c1 (the central c), c2, c3 and so on.
As you may see, the same note "central c" can be
called as:
do3, Cc and c1 so it's quite easy to be confused.
I suggest to use "central c" as reference for the
other notes, so in a "classic" 6 strings C/G gurdy:
- trompatte is tuned to central c
- melody strings are tuned to g above the trompette
and so on....
Frequency in hz can help but I suggest to use just the
"tempered" number: no one use "tempered" gurdies but
all we need is a "standard" reference :o)
I hope this may help....
....and I'm sorry to be so boring again...
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 01:20:19 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Blowzabella ,
> Still in Blowzabellica facts , what happened to Samuel Palmer
>who was the first Blow . HG player ?
>
>Henry
Just for the record, the first Blowzabella HG player was me. I was one of
the original members back in 1977 or thereabouts (pre-recording days). The
lineup then consisted of Bill O'Tool, Jon Swayne, Dave Armitage and Chris
Gunstone. I was playing a home-made, diatonic instrument(!). I haven't seen
Sam Palmer for years, butI hear he's still around (living in the East End
of London) he gave up making HGs a long time ago, which is a pity.
Juan
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 06:44:43 -0500
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: [HG] Low G melody string
Hi, Wolfgang. Welcome to the list!
I recently went on an Internet search for the
strings Wolfgang mentions. Anybody know
of a US source, particularly for the Thomastik
Dominant cello strings?
Thanks.
Judith
-
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:20:00 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] note's name and pitch
Hello Marcello,
marcello bono:
> This is an international list so sometimes is not so
> easy to understand some subjects involving different
> "measure" system.
> The name:
> -A, B(H), C, D, E, F, G - system is used in English
> and German language regions.
Its sometimes hard enough to stay clear of any B/H confusion:
German H = English B
German B = English Bb (b flat)
and, the not very common ones:
German Bes = English Bbb (?) (b doubble flattened) (?))
German His = English B# (b sharp)
> -Do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, si- system is used in Italy
> (I'm sure of that :o) and somewhere else...
> Pitch identification is not so easy.
>
> Here in Italy (and probably somewhere else) we use to
> call the central C of the piano as "do3" (this is the
> C between the two five-line staves, the upper one with
> the G key, the bottom one with the F key).
> The sequence of the same note in different octaves is:
>
> do-1, do, do1, do2, do3 (central c), do4, do5 and so
> on.
I looked up english (american ?) sites about music theorie and found the
term "middle c" for "central c".
> In UK (and probably in US too) they use a different
> sequence:
> C3, C2, C1, Cc (the central c), c', c" and so on.
> In Germany (and probably in Austria, since Simon used
> this system) they use:
> C2, C1, Cc, c1 (the central c), c2, c3 and so on.
Not exactly. I used c' c'' etc. I learned this in school. it exists
paralell with using numbers instead of vertical lines, c' = c1 c'' = c2
etc. This corresponds with the verbal forms c1 = "eingestrichenes c" (~
"c with one vertical line"), c2 = "zweigestrichenes c" (~ "c with two
vertical lines")
(taken from a school book)
so here where I live the octave is marked as in the following:
_C_(double underlined) => the very, very low C :o)
_C_ (underlined)=> the C one and a half octaves below the bass clef
C => the C under the bass clef (the cello C)
c => the C *in* the bass clef (the viola C)
c' = c1 => the C between bass clef and the treble clef (trompette C)
c'' = c2 => the C *in* the treble clef (lower C on the keyboard of a
usual G gurdie)
c''' = c3 => the C above the treble clef (higher C on the keyboard of a
usual G gurdie)
> Frequency in hz can help but I suggest to use just the
> "tempered" number: no one use "tempered" gurdies but
> all we need is a "standard" reference :o)
I recomend the following frequence (referring to a' = 440) playing in C,
the A is a pure sixt of A which would make it:
440/5 x 3 = 264 Hz = c' (middle c)
Here a draft table:
frequency Italian British Austrian
16,5Hz do-1 C4 _C_(double underlined)
33 Hz do C3 _C_
66 Hz do1 C2 C
132 Hz do2 C1 c
264 Hz(middle/central C) do3 Cc c1/c'
528 Hz do4 c1 c2/c''
1056 Hz do5 c2 c3/c'''
generally I would recomend to use the frequences of a diatonic scale in
C to define the pitches and *not* some tempered pitch.
A table for the diatonic pitches in C on a G/C hurdy gurdy follows
here:
g' = 396 Hz (C/4x3)
a' = 440 Hz (standard pitch)
h'/(b) = 495 Hz (C/16x15)
c'' = 528 Hz (A/5x3)
d'' = 594 Hz (C/8x9)
e'' = 660 Hz (C/4x5)
f'' = 704 HZ (C/3x4)
extension:
=========
(do not read if you want to keep your belives that intonation is a
simple matter)
The problem with choosing the A as standard pitch for hurdy gurdy is
that the A is the only common note(-name) of the both diationic scales C
and G that changes its pitch when moving between these two scales, so
for the key of G there are two alternative tunings:
derivated from C *or* directly, including the standard A
g' = 396 Hz (C/4x3) *or* 391,11 Hz (A/9x8)
a' = *445,5* Hz (G/8x9) *or* 440 Hz (standard A)
h'/(b) = 495 Hz (C/16x15)*or* 488,88 Hz (G/4x5)
c'' = 528 Hz (A/5x3) *or* 521,48 Hz (G/3x4)
d'' = 594 Hz (C/8x9) *or* 586,67 Hz (G/2x3)
e'' = 660 Hz (C/4x5) *or* 651,85 Hz (G/3x5)
f#'' = 742,5 Hz (G/8x15) *or* 733,33 Hz (G/8x15)
so its not really lucky if two hurdy gurdy players want to be sure about
their common intonation, both tuning after the reference a' 440 Hz but
without making sure they both do it in the same key ;-) .
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:24:59 +0100
From: Guido tum Suden <guido _at_ tumsuden.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] note's name and pitch
marcello bono:
> In Germany (and probably in Austria, since Simon used
> this system) they use:
>
> C2, C1, Cc, c1 (the central c), c2, c3 and so on.
In Germany it's mostly:
SKC, KC, C, c, c', c'', c''', c'''', c'''''
K stands for Kontra
SK for Sub-Kontra
Guido
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:37:59 -0500
From: Beverly Woods <tradmusic _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Low G melody string
Here's two sources:
http://www.swstrings.com/str_thom_dominant_cello.html
(if I recall thewy have free shipping on string orders, maybe over $50?)
also many hard-to-find strings are available at Juststrings.com.
http://www.juststrings.com/dominantthomastikinfeldcello.html
Beverly
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:42:13 -0800
From: "Joan" <jeepstr42 _at_ uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Online sources of recordings?
Hi. I'm looking for recommendations of on-line sources of HG music. I
have
tried CD Now and they don't have a search listing for HG, but do carry
Blowzabella.
Thanks, Joan
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:09:40 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Online sources of recordings?
This should get you started.
There are so many places to buy stuff on line, I will only list a few.
http://www.half.com/ A place to buy used CD's DVD's etc.
www.amazon.com
http://www.rootster.com/cdroots/ World music including at least
"Vielleux du Bourbonnais"
http://www.downhomemusic.com/ From El Cerito California, they stock a
lot of French music and have over the years sold just about all of the
French HG music. You might get more info by telephone.
http://www.dusty-strings.com/index.shtml Dusty Strings has a store in
Seattle Washington. Their web is not set up to sell CD's ( they don't even
mention them ) but if you call on the phone they will help you out. They
have a good selection of HG CD's and Books.
UK distributors
http://www.bejo.co.uk/bejo/html/welcome.htm You can find Nigel Eaton's
"Panic at the Café"
French Distributors
http://www.amta.com.fr/
http://www.cmtra.org/
Scandinavian distributor
http://www.drone.se/english/index.html
http://www.noside.com/ U.S. distributor of Scandinavian HG music
Links to more CD Shops on line
http://www.hopkin.is.nl/cdshops.htm
http://club.euronet.be/claude.calteux/html/ppcdshop.htm
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:22:05 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Article about Pierre Imbert in CMTRA web page.
There is a page on the CMTRA web site about Pierre Imbert.
It might not be there for ever so go and look at it now.
This link might work http://www.cmtra.org/entretiens/Pierre%20Imbert
If the link does not, try this.
Go to this web site http://www.cmtra.org/
click on Les entretiens de la Lettre d'Information n°43
Click on Pierre Imbert
Is there anyone out there that might be able to post a translation in
English?
It would also be nice to have a translation of the article in Trad
Magazine too.
Thanks
r.t.
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:25:36 -0800
From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ attbi.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] note's name and pitch
On 1/10/02 12:44 AM, marcello bono wrote:
> ....and I'm sorry to be so boring again...
Marcello, your history of the source of scale note names was fascinating. I
wish I could hear that melody (hymn) you spoke of!
Cheers,
Anna
+ + + + + + +
Anna Peekstok
Seattle, WA
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:44:22 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Maxou Heintzen workshop in Seattle
Maxou Heintzen has graciously agreed to teach a spring workshop in
Seattle. The dates for this workshop are March 29-31, 2002. The workshop
will begin with a concert/presentation on Friday evening and will continue
with classes on Saturday starting at 10:00-12:00, a lunch break from
12:00-2:30, afternoon class begins at 2:30 until 5:00 with an optional
catered dinner Saturday evening. There will be a jam session after dinner
and class beginning again Sunday morning at 10:00-1200, a lunch break from
12:00 to 2:30 and class again from 2:30 to 5:00.
The concert and workshop with be held at the home of Chris Wright and
Luther Black which is located in the Wallingford district of Seattle, close
to the University district. Participants will be responsible for their own
transportation, lodging and meals. The catered dinner on Saturday evening
is optional and will be an additional $30 per individual, friends and
spouses are welcome to join us. Last year our lunch time involved either
brown bag or a meal at a local restaurant. There are several good places
to eat within walking distance or a short drive. There are also several
places to stay in the area. If you have any questions regarding local
meals and lodging please contact Chris Wright at (206) 633-1026. We also
have a limited amount of space available to stay with local
players. Please contact Cali Hackmann at (360) 779-4620 if you would like
to explore this option.
Space in the workshop is limited to 12 participants and we also will have
some space for those who wish to audit the course. The cost of the course
is $125 which does not include the dinner Saturday evening, but does
include all other course related events. The workshop is available on a
first come, first served basis and is reserved by sending the full fee to:
OTW Registrar, P.O. Box 395, Indianola, WA 98342. We expect this workshop
to fill up quickly so send in your registration as soon as possible. If
you wish to register to audit, the fee is $65.
The Friday evening concert is also available to friends and spouses. There
is no admittance fee for the concert, but donations will be accepted..
Music will be available in advance for the course and we strongly suggest
that you come prepared to play the pieces up to speed. We will have printed
music and a tape or CD of the tunes for those who do not read music or just
want to listen to the tunes. :-)
Maxou is an incredible teacher. For those of you who haven't had the
privilege yet, you won't want to miss this. Those of us who attended last
year's workshop are still working on all the techniques and material and
the tunes were great additions to our repertoire. Maxou is charming and
funny and teaches in a clear and very organized fashion with one technique
building on the next. The course topic is French dance music and includes
ornamentation techniques, rhythm and dog, styling and more.
We hope to see you there.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:10:33 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Maxou Heintzen workshop in Seattle
Boy are we lucky.
We get to have the worlds funniest math teacher for an instructor at our
Hurdy Gurdy workshop.
I attended Maxou's workshop last year and it was great. You can learn so
much and improve your playing in just a short weekend of fun and playing.
And now even you folks on the other side of the U.S. can get cheep Airline
tickets too.
It would be great to get some folks from Europe to come over. You could make
a nice holiday of it.
But if you can not make it, I think that Maxou is going to have a workshop
in Spain, sometime in May. Is that correct Maxou?
Reading Maxou's lesson book and listening to the tape, and playing through
the exercises are a great way to prepare for the workshop.
The book is usually available at Dusty Strings in the U.S. and through AMPTA
in France.
r.t.
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:19:57 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Maxou - update
For Maxou's workshop, we forgot to include: make checks payable to "Over
the Water Hurdy-Gurdy Association"
Thanks
Alden
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:26:35 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] CMTRA translation ,
A quick translation ,
feel free to correct my english .
Exil is a strange thing , that gives to people , to friends,
a distance , in time and space , that ressembles to a presence
invites us to patience .
The friend in exil is distant, he lives in a place from where he
should
come back some day and we know that the music we used to play
together only paused for a moment .
At the first occasion , it will be easy to play those old airs,
those old self hypnotic bourrées or those beatyfull tunes
that Pierre better than anyone ,rolled on a carpet of
életronic drones . Pierre promised us this wait and his
come back .One of his best composition is " Avant de s'en aller ",
it went world over .
Guy Bertrand , Éric Montbel , Christian Oller .
( the translation does not reflect the poetical style of the original
text )
Pierre Imbert , 47 years old , died from a sudden
infartus , at his home .
HG player ( vielleux ) with " le Grand Rouge " and " Lo Jaï "
rechercher , field collector , author of numerous publications,
he played an important role in the revival and evolution of
the HG.
Following a tour with "Lo Jaï " he married Diana Stewart
and settled in Canada where he used to play with
" Cord'en folies "( Silly Strings ? ) and with Lorenna MacKennit.
He would have given a workshop at an annual festival in Seatle.
Last winter he met and played with Ricardo Tesi in
Vancouver and more recently with Louis
Sclavis , he had numerous project,
one with a famous american clarinetist ( not named in the text )
He planned to come back to France so his two childrens could
go to french school . Incineration will be held in Vancouver
and the ashes be kept in the family vault in Lyon .
Hommage will be given by his musician friends .
The discographie follows ,
I hope it gives the general idea of the text.
Henry Boucher
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Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 01:42:21 +0100
From: pieter lambrechts <pieter _at_ MailAndNews.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Article about Pierre Imbert in CMTRA web page.
Hello R.T. how are you ? (we've met in Hungary last summer)
Here's my translation of the page about Pierre Imbert, for those
interested. I'm not native french, nor English so here I go ...
---------------------------------
Exile is a very strange thing, that gives people, friends, a distance
both geographically and in time that resembles a presence, and invites us
to patience. Our friend in exile is far away, lives in another place
about which we all know (s)he'll return, and the music we made together
is just on hold for a moment. And the first moment we're able to redo the
old 'airs' and 'hypnotic bourrées' or those tunes Pierre could create
better than anyone else using electric bourdons. Pierre has promised us
to return, one of the most beautiful tunes by Pierre is called "avant de
s'en aller" (before going), he toured the planet.
Guy Bertrand, Eric Montbel, Christian Oller
Pierre Imbert,
aged 47, has passed away
After an infarct, at home
HG player in 'Grand Rouge' and 'Lo Jai'
As a (re)searcher, collector writing a lot of publications on the topic,
he played an essential role in the adaptation and evolution of the HG
Pierre was (after a tour with Lo Jai) married with Diana Stewart and
lived in Canada
where he worked with the band "Cord'en folies"
He played in North America with Loreena McKennit.
And animated, at the time, a HG workshop in Seattle.
Last winter he played and met Riccardo Tesi in Vancouver, and more
recently Louis Sclavis...
He started of in some musical projects with a great North-American
clarinet player.
He planned to return to France where his two kids should finish their
school?
His remains/ashes were returned to his family grave near Lyon (France)
where he (his memory) was (honoured) remembered by his musical friends.
---------------------------------
This is what I could make of it, kind regards,
Pieter
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 00:40:01 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [HG] Low G melody string
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wolfgang Weichselbaumer" <atelier _at_ weichselbaumer.cc>
> Hello Theo,
>
> It´s interesting for me to hear about your good experiences with the
> Corelli Crystal Sol-G-3 on the alto, because Matthias Loibner wanted
> to try it but it was not available at that time.
> I really like the Obligato on the deep c (under the g you are talking
> about). It´s not the easierst string to handle, but if you have it, it
> really sounds powerfull.
Yes I recently put on an Obligato for the low c chanter and it was the best
yet.
When I said I didn't like the Obligato, I actually meant the c'/d' Obligato,
an octave above.
I haven't tried one for the g chanter yet.
> Do you have any experiences how the Corelli works in this tuning?
The Corelli played OK at c (the low chanter) but I broke two of them in one
week when I tried to tune them up to d. The Obligato didn't break yet.
> The Thomastik Spirocore is a good choice to play outdoor.
> It´s a technically perfect string for a really good price, but you
> don´t have so many possibilities to form your own sound while playing.
Yes, I will try one some day.
> With the Thomastik Dominant cello take care to take the shorter ones
> (1/8 or 1/2).
Here is what I found. For the C/D drone (the lowest one) the Thomastic
Dominant cello C 1/8 length (#145) works well. For the c/d drone, the
Dominant cello d
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Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 01:21:02 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [HG] Low G melody string
Hello Wolfgang,
It was good to hear from you. Of course I still love my Alto HG. Most folks
who hear it like the sound. I have it set up with a g chanter, a g' chanter
and a c (low) chanter. The low c chanter is very stable and clear from the
bottom to the top.
Hope to see you in July.
See comments below.
Regards,
Theo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wolfgang Weichselbaumer" <atelier _at_ weichselbaumer.cc>
> Hello Theo,
>
> It´s interesting for me to hear about your good experiences with the
> Corelli Crystal Sol-G-3 on the alto, because Matthias Loibner wanted
> to try it but it was not available at that time.
> I really like the Obligato on the deep c (under the g you are talking
> about). It´s not the easierst string to handle, but if you have it, it
> really sounds powerfull.
Yes I recently put on an Obligato for the low c chanter and it was the best
yet.
When I said I didn't like the Obligato, I actually meant the c'/d' Obligato,
an octave above.
I haven't tried one for the g chanter yet.
> Do you have any experiences how the Corelli works in this tuning?
The Corelli played OK at c (the low chanter) but I broke two of them in one
week when I tried to tune them up to d. The Obligato didn't break yet.
> The Thomastik Spirocore is a good choice to play outdoor.
> It´s a technically perfect string for a really good price, but you
> don´t have so many possibilities to form your own sound while playing.
Yes, I will try one some day.
> With the Thomastik Dominant cello take care to take the shorter ones
> (1/8 or 1/2).
Here is what I found. For the C/D drone (the lowest one) the Thomastic
Dominant cello C 1/8 length (#145) works well. For the c/d drone, the
Dominant cello d (#143) works well. On th G drone I tried the Dominant cello
G 1/8 size (#144) and it sounded good but broke. When I tried the same
string in the 1/4 length(a little lighter) it seemed a bit too light but I
left it on. I wonder what others are using for G drone on an alto vielle
(drone vibrating length 44cm?)
> Usually I prefer the Catline for my baroque instruments.
> But I can imagine that you enjoy it on the alto.
Do you have a string to recommend for the standard g' chanter other than the
catline with perhaps a bit more volume?
> Regards,
>
> wolfgang
>
> www.weichselbaumer.cc
>
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Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 08:29:52 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] note's name and pitch (2nd part)
Simon and Guido
I'm sorry to be so confused about "German" notation,
but it's not my fault: I'm going to put several
italian books into the fireplace :o).
Simon, thanks a lot for your accurate informations (as
usual).
Music notation is a wide (sometimes confused) subject
and this convinced me that we really need to use the
"middle" C as reference for our chattering about
tuning.
Last night I had a nightmare: I was trying to
calculate the rate of a bill in Euro using a
frequencymeter.....
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 10:41:32 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: [HG] How much did you pay for "those" strings?
I'm just curious...
How much did you pay for a Corelli crystal G 3 or
Pirastro Aricore G 3?
They cost almost the same in Italy, while the spirocor
G 3 costs about 30 % more than this.
Prices in US Dollars or EURO only, please! :o)
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 14:33:38 +0000
From: Alison Gowan <acgowan _at_ freeuk.com>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: [HG] Low G melody string
Judith,
I use Thomastik Spirocore Bass strings on my double bass. I don't know
if the cello strings are harder to come by, but I know my first ones
were ordered by my local music store from somewhere in Seattle. Perhaps
the Seattle crowd might be of help in the whereabouts of the place.
Good luck, Alison
--
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Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:04:28 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] How much did you pay for "those" strings?
Marcello,
I get my strings from Southwest Strings at http://www.swstrings.com/
Not every string they carry is listed on the web site, but you can call
them. Their prices are good.
See comments below.
----- Original Message -----
From: "marcello bono" <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
> I'm just curious...
>
> How much did you pay for a Corelli crystal G 3 or
> Pirastro Aricore G 3?
The Corelli Crystal g (#733) costs $7.05. The Pirastro Aricore g (#4263) is
not listed on the site but I bought one from them for about $7.00.
> They cost almost the same in Italy, while the spirocor
> G 3 costs about 30 % more than this.
The Thomastic Spirocore S20A, this is the silver/steel string recommended by
Simon and Wolfgang but which I haven't tried yet costs $14.08. The same
string in chrome/steel is $10.71. Of course there is postage on top of this.
>
> Prices in US Dollars or EURO only, please! :o)
>
> =====
> Marcello Bono
If these prices are much cheaper than in Europe, and if you want to e-mail
me, I can call them for you and talk to them about shipping to Italy and
about the strings not listed on the web site. Or you can e-mail them at
sws _at_ swstrings.com They are very prompt with their shipping.
Regards,
Theo
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Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 10:14:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Wood selection: mahogany, maple or cedar?
I'm only chipping in to keep the ball up until
somebody that really knows chips in ... (hint, hint)
--- DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com wrote:
> Should I choose mahogany or maple or
> Spanish cedar? I would
> like to get a loud sound.
I only know maple and mahogany by the nature of the
woods. Of the three, I'd think maple would be the
loudest. Or the most hearable. It tends to sound
brightly, more trebles and all. Mahogany is mellower.
Spanish Cedar: I've only heard the one instrument (The
Marcello Bono Signature Minstrel) that's sounds very
nice and is, again hearable, but how much of that is
Master-Luthierie and ("don't call me 'master'")
musicianship I can't really tell.
Redwood and cedar tend to make loud instruments, but
the might be too bright and hard to bend.
Later,
Roy T (Springtown, Tx, USA)
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Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 19:02:28 +0000
From: David Bawden <David.Bawden _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Blowzabella ,
.
.For those of you in or near London, the current line-up of Blowzabella,
including Nigel Eaton are holding dance and instrument workshops in the
afternoon and a concert and dance in the evening at Cecil Sharp House,
Camden tomorrow, Saturday 12th January
David
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Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 22:23:48 +0100
From: Wolfgang Weichselbaumer <atelier _at_ weichselbaumer.cc>
Subject: [HG] thomastik strings
if anybody has problems to get Thomastik cello strings, please contact
me.
wolfgang
www.weichselbaumer.cc
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Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 10:12:19 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Baroque HG by Nicholas Jomier
Dear HG List,
We have an old guitar-shaped HG which has no signature. The only
identification is a small stamp on the keybox, consisting of an "I", a
small cross or perhaps a fleur-de-lis, and an "N". The stamp is repeated
three times - left, center, and right. Our friend Curtis said that in the
book "La Vielle en Bresse" another vielle with this stamp is attributed to
Nicholas Jomier, a violin maker in Mirecourt at the end of the 18th
century. However he also said that he'd heard that this attribution was
not correct. Can any of you shed further light on this?
Thank you,
Alden
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Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 23:10:31 -0000
From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
kkSubject: Re: [HG] Baroque HG by Nicholas Jomier
Alden,
Do you intend to restore it and sell it?
I would be very interested
Graham Whyte
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Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 09:57:50 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Are there any HG players near Indianapolis Indiana
Are there any HG players or people playing French music near Indianapolis
Indiana?
r.t.
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Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:10:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Dennis Sherman <dennis_sherman _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Are there any HG players near Indianapolis Indiana
--- "R. T. Taylor" <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net> wrote:
> Are there any HG players or people playing French
> music near Indianapolis Indiana?
Depends on what qualifies as "near"... I'm in
Chicago, which is nearer than Seattle or Boston, but
not quite close enough for an afternoon's visit. :-)
=====
--
Dennis Sherman Chicago, IL
dennis_sherman _at_ sherman-erickson.org
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Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:27:13 -0500
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] Are there any HG players near Indianapolis Indiana
Fred Meyer, are you out there???
judith
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Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 18:10:35 -0500
From: Bruno Cognyl-Fournier <fournierbru _at_ securenet.net>
Subject: [HG] Symphonia
Just thought I would report on the building of my Symphonia. I have so
far made a very cheap prototype in plywood. Thanks to Daniel Thonon who
lives in my area and who showed me how to adjust the height of the
strings , how much cotton to put on and how much rosin, etc, I have
been able to get it working. I still have to make the keyboard (is that
how you call it?). But the wheel works, the strings seem to be right (3
strings in total; one chanterelle using 1.00 mm gut from SOFRACOB, the
low C is a guitar 3 string, and the other g drone in unison with the
chanterelle is .80mm, that allows me do drop it to low C below if I want
or keep it at the unison with the chanterelle without overpowering the
chanterelle.). Once finished I will be happy to my experience with
anyone who wants to build a Symphonia cheaply, without requiring a lot
of tools.....
Once the whole thing finished, I will make another one with finer woods
Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
Montreal Canada (lutenist, not a HG player yet, but soon.....)
P.S. for those who were looking for an electric HG, Daniel Thonon built
one for himself, and apparently it is really good....
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 08:31:28 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] Wood selection: mahogany, maple or cedar?
--- Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com> wrote:
> I only know maple and mahogany by the nature of the
> woods. Of the three, I'd think maple would be the
> loudest. Or the most hearable. It tends to sound
> brightly, more trebles and all. Mahogany is
> mellower.
That's correct (but the subject is not so easy....)
> Spanish Cedar: I've only heard the one instrument
> (The
> Marcello Bono Signature Minstrel)
That's NO correct , you heard TWO instruments since
even my Lambert copy had a Spanish cedar soundboard
(or something like that).
When I started to make Lambert copies (I made 3) I
used "other kind of wood" I already had for the #1 and
#2, before using the "original" wood for the making of
a real "copy".
According to my (little) experience, Spanish cedar (or
"cedrella" in Italian) sounds "in the middle" between
maple and mahogany, closer to mahogany (but again,
this subject is not so easy)
Don't call me "master" and I will not call you
"student" :o)
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 08:50:18 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] How much did you pay for "those" strings?
Dear Theo
Thanks a lot for your reply.
After the reading of your message I made an order to
an italian shop that sells at "reasonable" prices
(about 9 US dollars for Corelli crystal and Pirastro
aricore, 14 US dollar for silver Spirocore).
These prices are about 40-50% less than the cheapest
shop in Bologna and I haven't been buying strings for
years, that's why I was so worried....
Thanks again
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 00:49:57 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Article about Pierre Imbert in CMTRA web page.
Thanks to Henry and Pieter for the translations.
Does anyone have the article about Pierre that was in Trad Magazine?
Thanks
r.t.
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:10:01 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Wood selection: mahogany, maple or cedar?
Thank you all for responding. You've all been a lot of help and made my
selection easy.
Thank you,
Jake Conte
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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:34:03 +0100
From: Pietro Battiston <pietro.battiston _at_ tiscali.it>
Subject: [HG] I'm new
Hello to all the members of this list, I'm Pietro Battiston, a 16 years
old Italian boy.
I studied during five years in the Conservatorio di Perugia (I don't know
what's "conservatorio" in English), now I play (alone, I don't have
lessons) some piano and guitar.
I immediately want to explain I have no experience in Hurdy Gurdies, I
don't have one but I've just seen some of this instruments and I love
their sound and their architecture.
For my inexperience, I have not many things to tell or much material to
offer, but more to learn.
Pietro Battiston
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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 08:48:37 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] I'm new
Welcome, Pietro!
>I studied during five years in the Conservatorio di Perugia (I don't know
>what's "conservatorio" in English), now I play (alone, I don't have
>lessons) some piano and guitar.
Very close in English, actually: "Conservatory"
>
>I immediately want to explain I have no experience in Hurdy Gurdies, I
>don't have one but I've just seen some of this instruments and I love
>their sound and their architecture.
>
>For my inexperience, I have not many things to tell or much material to
>offer, but more to learn.
That's what we're here for ;-)
BTW, where do you live?
Alden
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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 18:19:13 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] today, just to mention
A little nyckelharpa on (american radio) Prairie Home Companion with
Garrison Keillor,
tonight or may be re-broadcast tomorrow at noon... we're almost there may
be...
jim
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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 15:48:47 -0800
From: jim maruca <foolishsailor _at_ interisland.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] today, just to mention
Prairie home companion is rebroadcasting a performance from 01/15/2000
This link will give a list of stations in your area to listen to PHC
http://www.prairiehome.org/
Or you can listen to Vasen play the1/15/2000 show anytime at this link.
http://www.prairiehome.org/performances/20000115/index.shtml
My name is jim maruca. I have been lurking. I live on orcas island in the
san juan islands near puget sound.
No experience with the hg. Enjoy garmarna and vasen, and all the other
groups on northside label.
hope to get a minstrel model eventually.
My friend drew organized a nordic roots festival in mpls, mn. spring 2000.
At about 4am easter morning 2000 at his house members from vasen, hoven
droven, garmarna, hedingarna were jamming in the kitchen.
My friend cindy was dancing and did not realize she was on the heater vent.
She fell through straight to the basement.
All musicians stopped open mouthed and went to stare down at her through the
hole.
she was ok, but if ever any of you see these guys ask them if they remember
the full moon easter party of 2000 and the girl who fell through the floor.
jim
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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 20:29:26 -0500
From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com>
Subject: [HG] Note.....
I just put the following CDs on Ebay:
Musiques de Basse-Auvergne, Les Brayauds
l'Art de la vielle a roue, Fromenteau
Roots 'n Roll, Patrick Bouffard
Florilege de la Vielle a Roue, Zosso/Osnowycz
They are duplicates in my collection.
Judith
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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:42:33 -0500
From: Eugene <eugenebienvenue _at_ softhome.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] I'm new
Hi Pietro,
I have been almost completely inactive in this group, busy as I am with
my new PC recording studio, and not having played my beloved HG for some
time.
I'd just like to say how much I love Perugia, and most especially
Asissi (home of St Francis, just down the road), where I spent many a
summer playing renaissance music.
I hope you manage to get a hurdy gurdy together and will play for your
neighbors and friends. I've met few audiences in my travels that were as
attentive, passionate and appreciative as those in your area.
Greetings from Canada...
and all the best.
Eugene
Pietro Battiston wrote:
Hello to all the members of this list, I'm Pietro Battiston,
a 16 years old Italian boy.
I studied during five years in the Conservatorio di Perugia (I
don't know what's "conservatorio" in English), now I play (alone, I
don't have lessons) some piano and guitar.
I immediately want to explain I have no experience in Hurdy
Gurdies, I don't have one but I've just seen some of this
instruments and I love their sound and their architecture.
For my inexperience, I have not many things to tell or much
material to offer, but more to learn.
Pietro Battiston
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 21:48:36 +0100
From: Pietro Battiston <pietro.battiston _at_ tiscali.it>
Subject: R: [HG] I'm new
Thanks for your welcome messages.
For Alden: I live in Perugia, in Umbria (in the centre of Italy).
Pietro Battiston
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Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 21:59:55 -0800
From: Nathan Roy <imakhy _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] New kid on the block!
Dear list members,
I am happy to announce that my very own hurdy gurdy has just been completed!
My father and I worked nearly every day over Christmas break, and put on the
final touches last evening, two years after purchasing the original
Musicmaker's kit. Thanks to Alden's generosity in quality parts and advice,
the final product is not only functional, but beautiful and finely crafted
beyond what the kit could have produced. Thanks again! Now all I have to do
is learn to play it...
If you have any advice on maintenance or technique a complete beginner would
benefit from, I would appreciate it. The Muskett Method can only go so far
in describing things like cotton and setup, and my strings might not be the
perfect depth yet. Anyway... I hope to meet some of you in the future,
perhaps at OTW or even France, if a semester overseas falls in place for me.
I'm on my way!
Talk to you later... Sincerely,
Nathan Roy
___________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:15:17 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: [HG] variable intonation
Dear HG List,
I need some help with a question about intonation. On my alto vielle, the
drone strings raise their pitch when I turn the wheel faster (is coup
grass the correct phrase?). The trompette strings lower in pitch when I
turn the wheel faster. The closer the string is to the sound board the
more it raises or lowers in pitch. The chanters remain at about the same
pitch regardless of wheel speed. I can alleviate this tendency somewhat
by using heavier string gauges but I am still not quite happy with it. As
an example, my g trompette (an octave below normal g' trompette) is the
closest to the soundboard and if I speed up the wheel to get a constant
buzz, it lowers 15-20 cents. The G drone is the closest drone to the
sound board and it raises about 20 cents. Combine these two and you get a
pretty big spread. I make up for this by tuning the drone a little low
and the trompette a little high if I know I will be speeding up the wheel
but this is not such a good solution. I tried using a normal g' trompette
but it does the exact same thing. I tried changing the angle of the
trompette adjusting string as well as different amounts of cotton. On the
c drone and c' trompette, (the second closest strings to the soundboard),
the raising and lowering is not quite so much but still there and on the
third strings up from the soundboard (C drone and d' trompette) there is
no problem. Does anyone understand the geometry of why this happens? Any
suggestions of what to try next?
On some songs I don't mind this but on others I would like to get rid of
it if possible.
Thanks,
Theo Bick
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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:32:23 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: [HG] maximum buzz
Dear HG List,
I have another question. What combination of trompette string type and
weight, cotton and rosin will give you the loudest, most distinct buzz
and at the same time the quietest possible tone? So the ideal would be a
nice distinct buzz and almost no sounding of the note at all. I want to
hear the buzz but no note. So far it seems that nylon is best for this
although the heavier the string then the louder the buzz and the tone.
Also more rosin seems better. Am I asking for too much?
Theo Bick
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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:07:52 -0700
From: Barry Black <bbc0 _at_ shaw.ca>
Hi folks,
My name is Barry Black and I live in Alberta, Canada. I am not a
musician but my kids are and I like to make them instruments to play.
Previously I have made a couple of kalimbas and a love flute. I am
presently in the process of building a Pimpard styled luteback hg in the
hope that one of them would enjoy playing it for me.
I have the body built and I am now working on the tangent box.. I am
looking for help in the placement of the two rows of keys. The top row
has 10 keys and the lower 13. The string length will be 345mm. I am
wary of using the spacing shown on the drawing as I have already
discovered that it does contain some inaccuracies and I expect that the
key spacing needs to be at least in the ball park. I suspect that minor
errors can be cured by adjusting the tangents.
BB
end
www.blackboardcreations.com
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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:54:31 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] variable intonation
Dear Theo
> The trompette strings lower
> in pitch when I turn the wheel faster.
This sound strange and actually it never happened to
me, anyway, I've put my hands on several HGs with
problems of "erratic" trompette intonation and it was
always because of wrong position of the string or too
much pressure.
"Wrong position" means that the point where the string
is fixed (near the edge of the soundboard) is too
external, so the action of the tirant causes a
"visible" angle in the portion of the string between
the "dog" and the edge of the soundboard (or
vice-versa.....).
Mind: a "good" position for a certain kind of string
can be "not so good" if you change the pitch and /or
the gauge of the string.
The problem is that it's not so easy to try different
string's position in a temporary-not distructive
way....
> On my alto vielle, the drone strings raise their
> pitch when I turn the wheel faster.
This is "quite" usual and it happened to me too
several times...I'm still searching for a "perfect" G
drone string.
At the moment I'm quite happy with all metal drone
strings, but I change my mind according to every new
sonata I put in my repertory....
>The closer
> the string is to the sound board the more it raises
> or lowers in pitch.
> As an example, my g trompette (an octave below
> normal g' trompette) is the closest to the
> soundboard ....The G drone is
> the closest drone to the sound board.....
Maybe the problem is the low pitch of those string,
and not the position, I'm looking forvard to read
other comments about it!
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:26:40 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: [HG] Re:
Hi Barry
The following measurements taken from the theoretical nut position (
345mm from the bridge ) work for me. Prefix U for upper, L for lower, all
dimensions millimetres :
U 19.5, L 38.5, U 56, L 72.5, L 88, U 102.5, L 116.5 U 129.5, L141.5, L
152.5, U 162.5, L 172.5, U 182, L 191, U 199.5, L 207.5,
L 215, U 222, L 229,U 236, L242, U 249, L 259.
Neil Brook,
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk
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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:54:46 -0800
From: Nathan Roy <imakhy _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] Mon chien
Dear list,
I should probably learn the basics before concerning myself with the
trompette, but it would be nice to have the thing at least potentially
functional: As my new instrument was strung, I noticed that our mouche
bridge ended up closer to the player's side than expected, and the notch on
my chien isn't even half way to the foot. Is such a dog even capable of
being sounded? Do I need a lot more pressure on the wheel to overcome the
insufficient leverage? Incidentally, all my strings may be pressing down too
lightly, but I don't want to go any farther without an expert opinion. Too
bad there are so few HG players in California!
Thanks, Nathan Roy
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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:19:57 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] variable intonation
Hello Marcello,
I have been trying some little experiments indicated by your advise. See
below:
----- Original Message -----
From: "marcello bono" <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
> I've put my hands on several HGs with
> problems of "erratic" trompette intonation and it was
> always because of wrong position of the string or too
> much pressure.
>
> "Wrong position" means that the point where the string
> is fixed (near the edge of the soundboard) is too
> external, so the action of the tirant causes a
> "visible" angle in the portion of the string between
> the "dog" and the edge of the soundboard (or
> vice-versa.....).
Yes, on my vielle the trompette with the most problems in pitch had the most
visible angle created by the tirant between the dog and the edge of the
soundboard (when viewed from the top). It also was the string with the most
visible angle created by the dog itself (when viewed from the side). So I
cut off an ordinary pencil eraser and placed it under the trompette string
right down next to where it attaches to the edge of the vielle. By moving
this shim closer or further away from the string's attachment point I can
vary the angle created by the dog (when viewed from the side).Then, the less
the string bends around the dog the less tension I needed on the tirant for
any given sensitivity of the dog. I found a place where the pitch of the
trompette did not change at all when speeding up the wheel, and I found a
place where the pitch increased and another place where it decreased. This
was a very usefull discovery because now I can "tune" the problem out with
my pencil eraser. Maybe this adjustment could be offered by hurdy gurdy
makers, built in.
>
> Mind: a "good" position for a certain kind of string
> can be "not so good" if you change the pitch and /or
> the gauge of the string.
> The problem is that it's not so easy to try different
> string's position in a temporary-not distructive
> way....
Try the eraser.
> > On my alto vielle, the drone strings raise their
> > pitch when I turn the wheel faster.
>
> This is "quite" usual and it happened to me too
> several times...I'm still searching for a "perfect" G
> drone string.
> At the moment I'm quite happy with all metal drone
> strings, but I change my mind according to every new
> sonata I put in my repertory....
I tried an all metal G drone string, a d'Addaario but I didn't like it. What
kind do you use?
So, thanks very much for your help. I've had this question for 6 months and
am glad to get it solved.
Regards,
Theo
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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:13:32 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] Mon chien
Hi Nathan
> As my new instrument was strung, I
> noticed that our mouche
> bridge ended up closer to the player's side than
> expected, and the notch on
> my chien isn't even half way to the foot.
Well....it doesn't exist a "standard perfect" chien
dog, (isn't it?): usually you have to make a chien
according to your preference and instrument's
proportion.
Take the measure between the trompette string (without
any chien and tirant action) and the mouche bridge
(where the chien's tenon is resting).
If the measure is about between 8 to 13 mm you should
be able to make a good working chien.
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:47:14 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] variable intonation
Hi Theo
I fear I didn't understand something:
> Yes, on my vielle the trompette with the most
> problems in pitch had the most
> visible angle created by the tirant between the dog
> and the edge of the
> soundboard (when viewed from the top). It also was
> the string with the most
> visible anr!
> I tried an all metal G drone string, a d'Addaario
> but I didn't like it. What
> kind do you use?
As you may remember I like to have extremely quiet
drones.
At the moment I use a viola Spirocore C "strong" as G
drone on my Lambert copy.
With a very gentle pressure it sounds good and don't
change the intonation according to the speed of the
wheel.
I think my drones are shorter than your alto gurdy.
If you want I can take the vibrating lenght of the
string.
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:58:37 -0800
From: Nathan Roy <imakhy _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Mon chien
>Take the measure between the trompette string (without
>any chien and tirant action) and the mouche bridge
>(where the chien's tenon is resting).
>If the measure is about between 8 to 13 mm you should
>be able to make a good working chien.
Well... my measurement came out to more like 6 mm, but probably the dog I
made is just way too big for that dimention. Thanks for the info. I'm
getting in touch with a player here in Sothern California who hopefully can
provide more first-hand help. Until next time...
Nathan Roy
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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:24:24 -0000
From: John Allwright <John.Allwright _at_ izodia.com>
Subject: [HG] I'm new - Looking for a teacher UK/Oxford/Bucks/Berks
Hi all,
I've been playing a wide range of instruments in a wide range of styles
(Classical, early music & Jazz) for many years. I recently heard a live
performance of Chrismas music at Warwick Castle (recommended if you're
visiting) played on a HG and recorder and this sparked my interest in the
instrument. Two months on, several Nigel Eaton CDs and a few "gos" on my
friend's HG finds me so enthusiastic about HGs that I'm discussing having
my own instrument made by Neil Brook! While this is being made I'd really
like to find a local teacher to set me on the right path regarding basic
technique and exercises.
I live in South Bucks in the UK and could travel to Oxfordshire, Bucks,
Berks, Herts or even London for lessons - all I need to do is find a
teacher!
Advice/recommendations warmly welcomed
Thanks
John
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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:44:46 -0000
From: Jon Hall <jon _at_ carlton.powernet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] I'm new - Looking for a teacher UK/Oxford/Bucks/Berks
Hi John,
I'd thoroughly recommend Mike Gilpin - near Cambridge - maker and
teacher. If you want his contact details, email me off the list and I'll
dig them out...
Cheers - Jon
jon _at_ carlton.powernet.co.uk
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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:14:35 -0000
From: Ruth Bramley <ruthbramley _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] I'm new - Looking for a teacher UK/Oxford/Bucks/Berks
>I'm new - Looking for a teacher UK/Oxford/Bucks/Berks
>Hi John,
>I'd thoroughly recommend Mike Gilpin - near Cambridge - maker and teacher.
If you want his contact details, email me >off the list and I'll dig them
out...
>Cheers - Jon
And I'll second that! Check out Mike's website at www.hurdygurdy.biz.
Are you going to Norwich this weekend Jon? If so, I'll see you there.
Cheers
Ruthie
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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:00:31 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] I'm new - Looking for a teacher UK/Oxford/Bucks/Berks
>
> >I'd thoroughly recommend Mike Gilpin - near Cambridge - maker and teacher.
>If you want his contact details, email me >off the list and I'll dig them
>out...
>
> >Cheers - Jon
>
>And I'll second that! Check out Mike's website at www.hurdygurdy.biz.
We'll third that! Mike's a really nice guy and knows his stuff.
:-)----Cali Hackmann
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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 21:37:19 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] variable intonation
Hello again Marcello,
----- Original Message -----
From: "marcello bono" <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
> Hi Theo
>
> I fear I didn't understand something:
>
> > Yes, on my vielle the trompette with the most
> > problems in pitch had the most
> > visible angle created by the tirant between the dog
> > and the edge of the
> > soundboard (when viewed from the top). It also was
> > the string with the most
> > visible angle created by the dog itself (when
> > viewed from the side).
>
> If I'm right, you wrote about the string "closer" to
> the soundboard...how is it possible that the closer
> the most visible angle when viewed from the side? (is
> that English?!? :o).....
Yes, this is possible because that trompette string which is closest to the
soundboard is attached in the ordinary manner of most hurdy gurdies but the
other trompette strings have to go over a "riser" which lifts them up and
then on to the dog. This riser starts the strings out at the correct height
after they leave their attachment point at the edge of the soundboard. You
can see this on Woflgang's web-site
http://www.weichselbaumer.cc/atelier/english/index.html
by looking at the last photo of the canto model. It's a bit difficult to
navigate to (uses javascript). The design works well.
> Anyway, I'm glad you solved your problem in a way or
> another!
>
>
> > I tried an all metal G drone string, a d'Addaario
> > but I didn't like it. What
> > kind do you use?
>
> As you may remember I like to have extremely quiet
> drones.
> At the moment I use a viola Spirocore C "strong" as G
> drone on my Lambert copy.
> With a very gentle pressure it sounds good and don't
> change the intonation according to the speed of the
> wheel.
> I think my drones are shorter than your alto gurdy.
> If you want I can take the vibrating lenght of the
> string.
I think I'll try the same string in a medium weight.
Thanks alot for being interested. Hope to see you in September.
Regards,
Theo
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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:31:01 +0000
From: Matthew Williams <mattwill75 _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] Another new kid
Hallo everyone,
I've just joined, having been the happy owner of one of Neil Brook's
lute-backs since before Christmas (thanks to an unexpected salary bonus,
it must have been a sign). I have been a keyboard musician for many
years (hence the attraction to one-man-band technology), but first got
into gurdies through my wife's interest in early dancing - she runs a
group here in Norwich, UK. Maybe it's a question of either accompanying
or instead having to dance!
For the past month or so I've been quietly (?) practising, learning to
play from scratch using Muskett. I love it, but I do still feel like a
complete duffer and don't particularly want exposure.
Nice to hear of others coming to Norwich this weekend for NO2 - no doubt
we'll meet at the hg workshops, so look forward to meeting John , Ruthie
and others.
Cheers,
Matthew Williams
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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:57:16 +0000
From: Dave Holland <dave _at_ biff.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] Another new kid
On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 08:31:01AM +0000, Matthew Williams wrote:
> Nice to hear of others coming to Norwich this weekend for NO2 - no
> doubt we'll meet at the hg workshops, so look forward to meeting John
> , Ruthie and others.
Hello Matthew,
Congratulations on your "new arrival"! Hope to meet up with you at
Norwich.
Cheers,
Dave
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:34:50 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: [HG] String adjustments, revisited
I've found the discussion started by Theo regarding intonation of drones
very interesting. I've noticed the dropping in pitch of trompettes while
buzzing before; I hear it in quite a few recordings. I've never run into
it with any of the hurdy-gurdies I've made until recently - just lucky, I
guess! I'm looking forward to experimenting with string positions as Theo did.
But here's another question about strings and setup, only this time it
pertains to melody strings. I've never experienced this particular problem
before, and I'm hoping that someone who has might have a suggestion.
I'm stringing and setting up a new hurdy-gurdy, and initially one of the g'
melody strings was behaving fine at first (remember, Nina?), but it now has
moved on and has developed a warbling sound. I might normally attribute
this sound to poorly applied cotton, but it only appears when playing two
specific notes: the f '' (natural) and the a" on either side of the
'middle' g" key. The rotating speed of the wheel has no effect, except
that the problem doesn't manifest when cranking VERY slowly. When I press
either of these keys with my index finger, and while holding that key in
use another finger to just barely touch the "non" vibrating portion of the
string (between the tangent and the nut), the problem disappears. I don't
have to touch the string hard enough to move it or change the pressure of
the string against the tangent or wheel or anything; the slightest touch is
enough. It also usually works to press a lower key enough so that a
tangent touches the "non-working" portion of the string.
I've changed cotton multiple times, which doesn't help. This is a new
string, and everything else looks ok. The tangents are screwed down, and
they seem to be stable and solid and in full contact with the keys. The
other two melody strings, d' and d", work fine. Anyone have any ideas
about what might be causing this, and why it would appear only after an
hour (or so) of playing? Should I just try a new string?
~ Matt
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:26:02 +0100
From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [HG] String adjustments, revisited
Hi Matthew,
I know these problems, you could climb up walls...Once I had this problem, I
first changed the string, nearly the same problem, I tried EVERYTHING
possible, it took me hours - no change. Then I changed the string again -
perfect sound!!! I mean, it can happent that brand new strings have a
damage, possibly in the internal structur which cannot be seen -(I am
talking about gut!) but causes immense troubles. So change the string - and
maybe again!!!
Also try a different diameter, just 1 or 2 / 100 of a millimeter. If this
doesn't help, change the tangent, just take the next one or one from the
end, this sometimes works miracles.
I hope this can help you. And thanks for reference to Doug! :-)
Don't give up, the firts 20 years are the hardest!!
Best regards
Helmut
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:01:28 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] String adjustments, revisited
Have you thought of throwing the Hurdy Gurdy away and starting over?
I guess not.
I have had this same problem many times.
I picked up a brand new Jackes Grandchamp at St. Chartier and played it for
a while and brought it back to him to see what could be wrong. He worked on
it for a while and then sent an assistant to get a new string. He put the
new string on and some things sounded better, but he was not satisfied. He
changed it again. That was 2 strings that he tried. Then he switched the
brand of string from Saverez to Sofacord or maybe it was Sofacord to
Saverez. And that 3rd string was perfect.
I picked up a brand new Vielle from Boudet. I played it for a few days and
brought it back to him for the usual small adjustments. Jean Claude worked
on it for a while and took off the original string and replaced it with
another. He worked on it for a while and replaced it again. And now he was
happy with the sound and there were no more strange sound.
So the bottom line is that we tend to think of the strings as some sort of
Holly relic. Yes they cost some money. But they are not perfect. And
sometimes even a brand new string needs to be replaced.
I asked Jean-Luc Bleton about this last summer. I told him that sometimes
I buy a string, cut it in half and put the 2 strings on the Hurdy Gurdy and
one sounds good and the other sounds bad.
His answer; Strings are not perfect.
So I would first check the tangents, maybe swap them to see if that helps.
And then I would replace the string.
And remember that we have discussed on this list, the problem of strange
sounds on the f natural string. It tends to be the note that on some Hurdy
Gurdys, and with some particular combination of string and tangent,
interacts with the vibrations of the Hurdy Gurdy when the fundamental is
tuned "correctly" to "g".
Good luck.
r.t.
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:19:21 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] String adjustment ,
This reminds me of an old lutherie book ( pre WW I )
in the chapter about a strings , it mentioned :
" First , find the big end of the string .... "
Henry
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:24:02 -0800
From: John Woosley <johnwoosley _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] String adjustments, revisited
Matt,
The string and tangent problem you are describing sounds familiar, but not
from HG experince - I had similar problems with my cello.
I was told the warbling or "skipping" sound was a "wolf tone" and is a
peculiarity of the setup of the instrument. Wolf tones do not occur on every
instrument, and minor adjustments can sometimes affect their appearance or
removal. In the case of my cello, the most noticeable, annoying, and
persistent wolf was, what do you know, right around F/F# on the G string!
Because of the variable intonation on a cello keyboard, I could move my
fingers slightly to intone a different note and sometimes remove the tone.
Vibrato also sometimes helped the problem; perhaps these pitch changes will
affect your experience. Also, changing the ground note of the string (and
thereby, the tuning of the instrument) by degrees might remove the tone, but
it is not a good permanent solution.
Finally, there is a little apparatus one can get to tinker with wolf tones.
It is a small metal and rubber clamp which is affixed below the bridge on
classical instruments in the violin family. I am not sure where one could
place the clamp on a HG, but this meshes with your description of affecting
the tone by a light damping touch in the non-vibrating area of the string.
Certainly, as Helmut & R.T. have said, replacing the string with an
identical or different gague would be the easiest solution to try. But if
this is a wolf tone problem, then it may be an integral part of the
vibrating dynamic of this instrument and could reappear at a later date.
Hence the additional suggestions.
Cheers.
John
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:47:25 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] String adjustments, revisited
Interesting concept, John. I've certainly heard about wolf tones, but I've
never thought that they could apply to me! Does it follow, based on your
knowledge of wolf tones, that this problem would develop only on one string
which plays that particular pitch, and that it wouldn't appear until after
I played that string for awhile?
~ Matt
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:52:44 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] String adjustments, revisited
Thanks RT and Helmut!
I will try a new string (or two!). I would expect such a problem to
manifest itself right away, and not only after the string was installed and
played for a bit. But who can predict how a funky string will react to
being played?
~ Matt
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:55:00 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] String adjustment ,
At 03:19 PM 1/28/02 -0800, you wrote:
>This reminds me of an old lutherie book ( pre WW I )
>in the chapter about a strings , it mentioned :
>" First , find the big end of the string .... "
>
>Henry
Yes, but what did the book recommend that you do with the big end of the
string?!?
Thanks, Henry, that helps put it in perspective! We've come a long way...
~ Matt
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:54:37 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] String adjustments, revisited
Hello Matthew,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Szostak" <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
> I've found the discussion started by Theo regarding intonation of drones
> very interesting. I've noticed the dropping in pitch of trompettes while
> buzzing before; I hear it in quite a few recordings. I've never run into
> it with any of the hurdy-gurdies I've made until recently - just lucky, I
> guess! I'm looking forward to experimenting with string positions as Theo
did.
I now think that the dropping of pitch on some trompette strings is caused
because the string thinks it is longer when you turn the wheel faster
because the dog is now more a part of the string and the trompette bridge is
effectively moved further to the right. Does this make sense? When I stop
the buzzing with a light pressure of my finger, there is never any dropping
in pitch. As soon as I take my finger off the dog the pitch drops as the
buzzing starts.
> But here's another question about strings and setup, only this time it
> pertains to melody strings. I've never experienced this particular
problem
> before, and I'm hoping that someone who has might have a suggestion.
>
> I'm stringing and setting up a new hurdy-gurdy, and initially one of the
g'
> melody strings was behaving fine at first (remember, Nina?), but it now
has
> moved on and has developed a warbling sound. I might normally attribute
> this sound to poorly applied cotton, but it only appears when playing two
> specific notes: the f '' (natural) and the a" on either side of the
> 'middle' g" key. The rotating speed of the wheel has no effect, except
> that the problem doesn't manifest when cranking VERY slowly. When I press
> either of these keys with my index finger, and while holding that key in
> use another finger to just barely touch the "non" vibrating portion of the
> string (between the tangent and the nut), the problem disappears. I don't
> have to touch the string hard enough to move it or change the pressure of
> the string against the tangent or wheel or anything; the slightest touch
is
> enough. It also usually works to press a lower key enough so that a
> tangent touches the "non-working" portion of the string.
I find that if I even just touch the non vibrating part of the string itself
with my finger while playing the offending note it will usually stop the
warbling. One thing that I do to see if the problem is a loose fitting
tangent or too much play somewhere is to lower or raise the note by twisting
the tangent 1-2 mm (raising it usually works better than lowering). If the
warbling goes away then I am pretty sure everything is tight and the problem
is as John said in the "vibrating dynamic of the instrument". O course now
the note is out of tune and I can live with that if it is not an important
note (f# etc) or I can adjust finger pressure on the key, which is
bothersome. or as was mentioned change the tangent or change the string
which might work. Yesterday I wrapped a very thin piece of leather around
the tangent and that worked somewhat.
> I've changed cotton multiple times, which doesn't help. This is a new
> string, and everything else looks ok. The tangents are screwed down, and
> they seem to be stable and solid and in full contact with the keys. The
> other two melody strings, d' and d", work fine. Anyone have any ideas
> about what might be causing this, and why it would appear only after an
> hour (or so) of playing?
I think the reason it only appears sometimes is that the instrument changes
with temperature and humidity changes and if you start playing a cool hurdy
gurdy, after an hour or so it is warmer and moister (or maybe drier) and the
wolf note is in a slightly different place.
By the way, I have experience just the opposite problem also, where the note
sounded good all the time except when a lower tangent was also touching the
string and then it sounded bad.
Good luck,
Theo
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:03:54 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] String adjustments, revisited
>I now think that the dropping of pitch on some trompette strings is caused
>because the string thinks it is longer when you turn the wheel faster
>because the dog is now more a part of the string and the trompette bridge is
>effectively moved further to the right. Does this make sense? When I stop
>the buzzing with a light pressure of my finger, there is never any dropping
>in pitch. As soon as I take my finger off the dog the pitch drops as the
>buzzing starts.
Yet another interesting thought. If this is so, why wouldn't it happen all
the time, with all buzzers? Would a more massive chien be less inclined to
cause a pitch change while buzzing than a small, light one?
~ Matt
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:38:47 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] String adjustment ,
As much as I remember , it suggested to tie the big end at the
tail piece and the thin end on the peg .... or was it the opposite ? <g>
In those days the string quality was quite variable , more than today .
I do not know if this bit of information is relevant to the problem
but there is another instrument with a buzzing bridge , the tromba marina , I
had seen
picture before but when I saw one played , I was surprised by the
fact that the string is bowed between the upper nut and the finger.
I had never before imagined that this other part of the string is
also energized .
Henry
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:56:08 -0800
From: John Woosley <johnwoosley _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] String adjustments, revisited
In my troubling experience with wolf tones, they did seem to gravitate to a
single string rather than a set pitch; that is, a matching F# played on a
lower string would not sound a wolf tone while the G string would.
Sometimes the problem would be constant, other times it would emerge after
some playing time, or get worse (but rarely better... sigh.) So I do suspect
warmth/humidity and other factors play a role.
I don't see why HG's would be immune to this phenomenon, since they are in
essence bowed string instruments. However I haven't heard your specific
tone's sound so I could be off base. The trick is, so many factors can come
into play when dealing with strings vibrating against hollow bodies, that it
is difficult to employ scientific methods to narrow down a problem. :¬|
John
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:43:22 -0700
From: Barry Black <bbc0 _at_ shaw.ca>
Subject: Re:[HG] String adjustments
I'm making a mental note to myself to purchase at least three extra
strings when the time comes.
Barry
www.blackboardcreations.com
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 07:01:58 -0000
From: Ruth Bramley <ruthbramley _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: [HG] Norwich02
Great to see so many of the HG list at the Norwich 02 festival this weekend.
I particularly enjoyed Eric Raillard's excellent G workshop. Plenty to go
away and work on ;-)
Ruth
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:34:22 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] String adjustments, revisited
Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com> wrote:
> I've certainly heard
> about wolf tones, but I've
> never thought that they could apply to me!
Hi Matt
Of course wolf tone could be ONE of our problems, but
it's quite easy to know if the "strange sound" depends
on it or in something else: you just have to change
the pitch of your gurdy when the problem occours (for
exemple A=415 hz instead of 440).
If the "strange sound" happens on a different key
(half tone up, as exemple), it's definitely a wolf
tone problem.
Anyway, the wolfe tone's "strange sound" is quite
"peculiar": it's a kind of treble rattling sound (try
to imagine a HG with asma problem...:o) and it's
impossible to elimitate the problem without changing
the pitch of the note (that's to say: if you just
touch the string and the noise disappear, I think it's
not a wolfe tone problem).
I had similar problems more than once and I've found
that it's more often a tangents problem instead of
strings problem (sometimes both tangents and strings
are involved, but changing a tangent is faster and
cheaper...:o).
Try the Theo's solution: put some thin leather (or
something like) on "infected" tangent, and if this
solve your problem just made a (several...) new
tangent(s).
Someone says "the first 20 years are the
harder"...well....I'm in my 21st and never
changed.....
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:50:42 -0000
From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] 5 drones and 1 chanterelle
Dear list,
I have been lucky enough to buy a real "Colson a Mirecourt" guitar shaped HG
which seems to be in mostly un-modified and un-repaired original condition.
It has only one row of tangents but 2 chanterelles.
It will be sensitively restored to playing condition by a luthier well known
to us all
During the choice process I looked at several other guitar syle HGs of
similar age and found 5 that had been built with only one row of tangents
(no holes in the keys for the second row) but with 2 chanterelles in the
normal position in the key box.
Checking other Mirecourt style guitar HGs on museum web sites, the
description "5 drones, one chanter" is common
Does anyone know any more about this subject and in particular, what the
pitch of the un-keyed chanterelle might have been ? (presumably also g' but
perhaps lower or even a high d'' ??)
I don't have any musical problem with adding a second row of tangents but I
am cautious about compromising the historical accuracy of the instrument by
changing a common early specification to a more modern one. Such HGs must
have sounded good otherwise luthiers wouldn't have kept on making them like
that.
Has anyone got reference info or links on the Colsons, dates first names etc
? I can't find anything useful on the net. I even called the "Musee de la
Lutherie" in Mirecourt today with little success.
Graham Whyte
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:41:21 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] 5 drones and 1 chanterelle
Hi Graham
I don't know if some Colson were made with just 1
chanterelle.
The problem is that is quite easy to change all the
keys, converting a gurdy from 2 chanterelles-4 drones
to 1 chanterelle-5 drones and viceversa.
As far as I know, lot of gurdies were converted during
the ages and I've seen several instruments made to be
2+4 converted in 1+ 4 with symphatetic strings or
drone srtring instead of the second chanterelles.
In Florence Music Academy there is a Colson (together
with 2 Lambert) that seems to be all original, and it
has got 2 usual chanterelles.
What about keeping the "original" one tangent keys and
making a new serie of two tangents keys?...then you'll
be able to decide what's your preferred arrengement,
without damage the "original" parts of your gurdy.
Ciao
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:44:49 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] String adjustments, revisited
Hello,
so far we had (plus som new bits):
first:
make sure that wheel surface, string pressure on the wheel, rosin and
cotton are perfect.
make sure that the instrument, all tangents are in tune (just
intonation).
If there are two or more melody strings: Make sure that all played
strings are touched by both tangents simultanously and that if you play
only one of two or more melody strings the not played ones do not touch
earlier.
Have a close look at the behavior of the string against the tangent. Is
it moving up and down the tangent? this may happen, in a certain
frequence wich interfears with the frequence of the string. A notch in
the right position or a different surface for the tangent (see below)
may stop this (a natural notch in a wrong position may make it worse)
tune the instrument down and up a bit to see if the problem is attached
to a certain pitch (take in concideration that when you change the pitch
also the attributes of the string change). Also look if the problem
appears in another octave and on onther strings at the same pitch .
Replace the tangent in question (just exchange it with another) to see
if the problem is attached to a certain tangent.
Put something arrond the tangent: heat shrinkable tubing, silicone tube,
leather, ... , this influences the vibrations of the string.
Change the dimensions of the tangent in question: lenght, weight, to
make sure that the frequencies of the tangent (natural frequency ?) are
not the cause.
Replace the string against one of the same brand to see if its a defect
of the string.
Try other diameters and brands of string.
See if the angle of the string is good: lift and lower the saddle.
What else to check: the bridge, the angle from the bridge to the
tailpiece, the angle from the saddle to the peg.
That this problem occures after a while of playing, could be caused by
the fact that some of the kinetic energy within the string is
transformed to warmth and so the string changes it attributes. Also the
wheel surface changes with playing (cotton, rosin) and also the players
way of pressing the string (for example fingers may get tired).
last but not least:
F natural and A - the diatonic notes beyond and above the octave - are
troublemakers even on the "perfect hurdy gurdy" since their intonation
is problematic/ambigous, and some problems simply disappear with
practise.
thats my bits for now,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:58:16 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] 5 drones and 1 chanterelle
Hello,
graham:
> I have been lucky enough to buy a real "Colson a Mirecourt" guitar shaped HG
> which seems to be in mostly un-modified and un-repaired original condition.
> It has only one row of tangents but 2 chanterelles.
> (...)
> Such HGs must
> have sounded good otherwise luthiers wouldn't have kept on making them like
> that.
Hm I think there are other possible reasons to build an istrument like
this beside that it sounds good.
Like:
* it is cheaper, but looks like the more expensive ones.
* it is easier to tune, or say it the other way round, one will not
realize that much that it is out of tune.
* One could read it as indicator that the melody was not so important
for the circumstances under which the instrument was used, like with
some hungarian HG stuff where the melody of the HG is of no importance
at all: its just buzz and drone.
regards,
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:39:51 -0300 (ART)
From: marcos kaiser mori <kaisermori _at_ yahoo.com.br>
Subject: [HG] Strings for 30 cm
Hi, everybody! I'm glad to be back to the list,
after a while without any contact.
Thanks for those who helped me in Hungary, my Vielle
(a guitar-shaped Louvet) is finished, but the
stringing is still an open question. I am using gut
strings from a local lute maker, but would like to ask
for more help.
Does anyone have a vielle small like mine (30 cm
string lenght)? If yes, what kind of strings would be
recommended for such a miniature?
Marcos Kaiser
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:06:23 +0200 (EET)
From: Juulia & Esa <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi>
Subject: [HG] Tuning systemas and traditions, A=440Hz or something else...
This is a little off topic, but anyway:
I am writing a small article about the development that has caused (and
still causing) the raise in standard concert pitch.
During the centuries this standard pitch has raised. It is said that the
raise is or was good for early recordings and that it is a mark of the
developing quality in singing and instrument making. I have seen even a
A=445 Hz -tuning been praised by pianomaker.
On this list there was a little connection to this "problem" long ago:
somebody mentioned that making very small french bagpipe chanters: they
become almost too small to handle if the pitch is A=440 Hz. Yes: really too
hard to handle, because higher pitch means smaller pipe and less space for
fingers on holes.
I have some questions:
- Does anyone of you know any good webpages about this standard pitch
-question?
Many of you have certainly tried to use (or are using frequently) older
tuning A=432 Hz or 435 Hz.
-How would you describe the difference in sound compared to modern 440 Hz?
Is there a quality difference (ie. better/worse, warm, natural, better to
intonate when playing etc) or is it just lower?
-Does your instrument and strings work well with both lower and higher
pitch or do you have to change something in the overall adjustment (cotton,
string pressure, nut, tangent positions etc.)
- Do you know "Science and Technology in 21st Century" -magazine and its
article "The Singing Voice Demands a Scientific Middle C" in Winter 99-2000
issue by Kathy Wolfe? (Or other works by the same author -she is
campaigning with many others to lower back the standard pitch to A= 430-432
Hz.)
If yes, then what do you think about this article and/or her work?
All help and ideas would be very welcome. Reply me privately, if you feel
that this topic is non-relevant to the list.
Thank You in advance.
Esa Mäkinen, Finland
..........................................................
Esa Mäkinen & Juulia Salonen
Variskuja /Kråkgränden 1b8
01450 VANTAA / VANDA
FINLAND
tel. +358-9-8235318
website of our band:
www.ihtiriekko.net
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:09:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: [HG] A little something...
...for the HG player who has everything else.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1326202916
Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu
Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html
"Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae."
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:12:48 EST
From: JudyHurdy _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Maxou - update
Hi from Judy--I'd like to come to the concert on Friday night, I'll be
elsewhere the rest of the weekend...
Judy Olmstead
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:11:38 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] Tuning systemas and traditions, A=440Hz or something else...
Hi Esa
> Many of you have certainly tried to use (or are
> using frequently) older
> tuning A=432 Hz or 435 Hz.
> -How would you describe the difference in sound
> compared to modern 440 Hz?
> Is there a quality difference (ie. better/worse,
> warm, natural, better to
> intonate when playing etc) or is it just lower?
It depends on setting up: when I just use 415 pitch
instead of 440 with the same strings, the sound is
going to be "worse".
If the instrument has "right" strings gauge it just
sound lower.
> -Does your instrument and strings work well with
> both lower and higher
> pitch or do you have to change something in the
> overall adjustment (cotton,
> string pressure, nut, tangent positions etc.)
for half tone difference I usually change nothing.
I played several time at 392 and I had to change
string gauge, pressure and nut position.
> - Do you know "Science and Technology in 21st
> Century" -magazine and its
> article "The Singing Voice Demands a Scientific
> Middle C" in Winter 99-2000
> issue by Kathy Wolfe?
no
=====
Marcello Bono
my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:59:53 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] The price is right ,
From the book by J.F. Chassaing about the luthiers from
Jenzat , it was a normal set up to sell a HG with only one row
of tangents , catalogs from 1890 show that they
were sold at a lesser price , Pimpard would add a second row
for 10 francs ( 1890 francs that is ) . As the mouche string
is mostly used to prevent the sleeves from touching the trompette
string <g> I doubt that the string on the keybox was sounded at all ,
at best is only equalized the tension on the tail piece .
Now the catalogs do not show pictures of instrument cases
boxes or straps , I wonder what they looked like ?
There is a mentoin of a goat skin bag ( for 35 francs , wich seems
expensive for the time ) .
I read elsewhere that in the baroque period , well dressed people
avoided leather , wich they thought looked vulgar , even for belts and
shoes .
Is there any picture of a XVIII th HG straps ?
Henry Boucher
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:09:53 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] The price is right ,
The Pajot on display in the Victoria and Albert museum in London is one of
these one row of tangents instruments. This is not at all apparent until
you open the keybox lid, as for the rest it is a reasonably ornate
instrument (there is marquetry on the keybox lid, wheel cover and tailpiece
and some painting on the soundboard, all of which you usually pay extra
for).
Pajot also made instruments with three rows of tangents, I guess for
another 10 francs or so.
Juan
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:28:55 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] The price is right ,
Hello,
SB/JW:
> Pajot also made instruments with three rows of tangents, I guess for
> another 10 francs or so.
where can I find information about this fact ? Do you know about tunings
used for these instruments? Where they commonly made ?
a curious
Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria
--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:04:44 -0000
From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] Tangents is extra guv!
Juan,
One of other HGs I looked at for possible purchase is an 1866 Pajot
lute-back which has 2 rows of tangents (still for sale I think).
On the other 5 guitar-backs with single tangent rows, they all seem to have
a fully fitted working chanter(drone?) but no tangents and no holes in the
keys.
I find it hard to believe it was't a working string and the cost of adding
the second row (23 tangents and 23 holes) is not excessive even at today's
prices. I've been quoted $70 for the holes and $70 for a half set of
tangents.
How do you get to lift the lid of a V&A instrument ? I thought they were all
hermetically sealed in their glass cases never to be touched by human hand
again especially by public hands !!
Another plea for info or links on the Colsons a Mirecourt, dates first names
etc, I have a need to know a little bit more about the guys who made my new
baby albeit a long time ago.
Graham Whyte
graham _at_ altongate.co.uk
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 01:11:33 -0000
From: dave _at_ dpraties.freeserve.co.uk
Subject: Re: [HG] Tangents is extra guv!
Hi,
In my experience, museums can be very good at letting you look at
and even handle instruments provided you seem like you know what
you are talking about, and follow their handling guidelines. I have no
experience of the V&A, but in the Ashmolean, Oxford, I had Amati
and strad fiddles thrust into my ( gloved ) hands, and handled,
photographed and measured many other instruments, including
HGs, in a variety of other museums. Phone first, tell them you're a
builder/restorer, or just have a serious interest in the instrument, if
possible have a specific reason ready to actually handle the thing
and you will usually get a positive response. The best museum of all
in this respect that I found is the Philip Bate collection in Oxford. It
also has the benefit ( Or had when I last went ) of a curator who
really knows his stuff, and is willing to share his time and knowlege
with you.
Good Luck,
Dave
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:42:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] Mon chien
On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Nathan Roy wrote:
> Well... my measurement came out to more like 6 mm, but probably the dog I
> made is just way too big for that dimention. Thanks for the info. I'm
> getting in touch with a player here in Sothern California who hopefully can
> provide more first-hand help. Until next time...
I came to this party a little late... ;-(
If the distance is to small, another approach is to increase it a little
with the very judicious application of a chisel or knife to shave a bit
off the front of the mouche bridge where the slot for the dog is. It's a
good idea to pad the surrounding area with tape or something, or your
soundboard may not look very good when you are done.
If you take this approach, make sure that the final product has a clean
junction between mouche bridge and soundboard, and that it's parallel to
the string. A little tiny bit of junk where the dog's back foot sits can
cause all sorts of problems with consistancy.
Alden
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:34:16 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Mirecourt ,
Strange thing , there are very few w-sites about Mirecourt ,
centuries of instrument making and so little written about it .
The tourist guides barely mention the fact .
At St Chartier I do not remember any makers from that town .
Speaking with French people , the general opinion was that
it is a very dull place . The most interesting informations I found
yet
were from a french novel " Le luthier de Mirecourt " .
Henry Boucher
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 06:52:51 -0000
From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] Mirecourt, liitle on the web,
Henry,
Thats exactly what I found or rather didn't find.
Looking at the web site of "Musee de la Lutherie" in Mirecourt, it seems
that the emphasis is on other bowed instruments and especially on harps and
guitars
I will call the Musee again today and try and get some leads.
Knowing that at least Pajot offered single and double rows of tangents makes
me less uncomfortable about adding the second row to the Colson, but I
really would like to find out a little more.
Graham Whyte
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:09:15 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Tangents is extra guv!
>Juan,
>
>One of other HGs I looked at for possible purchase is an 1866 Pajot
>lute-back which has 2 rows of tangents (still for sale I think).
>
>On the other 5 guitar-backs with single tangent rows, they all seem to have
>a fully fitted working chanter(drone?) but no tangents and no holes in the
>keys.
As someone pointed out earlier, there were also hurdy gurdies which had
sympathetic strings fitted where the second melody string would be (look
for tell tale holes in the tailpiece or on the little platform that
supports the nut).
>How do you get to lift the lid of a V&A instrument ? I thought they were all
>hermetically sealed in their glass cases never to be touched by human hand
>again especially by public hands !!
As Dave pointed out, all you have to do is ask. I went up to the front desk
and made an appointment, I said I wanted to measure this instrument, the
next day I was left alone in a room with the Pajot ( this was the first
time I actually touched a hurdy gurdy!). That was back in 1975, but I think
museum policies are pretty much unchanged, this is after all what these
collections are there for. The Ashmolean in Oxford is great for this. I
spent a whole afternoon going through Samuel Palmer's sketchbooks there
(the painter, not the hurdy gurdy maker).
Juan
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:22:04 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] The price is right ,
Hi Simon,
The only evidence I have is that I recently bought such an instrument from
Alden and Cali, who still have it in Washington. I thought at first the
third row of tangents was a later addition, but I noticed that the keybox
is considerably wider than the standard, so I am pretty sure it is an
original feature. I seem to remember it was signed Pajot Jeune.
Juan
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:05:32 +0100
From: René Meeuws <meeuws _at_ msmp.demon.nl>
Subject: Re: [HG] Mirecourt, liitle on the web,
Several years ago I visited the museum in Mirecourt. There was just one HG:
from Jenzat (a Pajot or Nigout, I don't remember exactly) .......
Never heard about Colson of Thouvenel.
René Meeuws
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:57:36 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Colson ,
An interesting aspect of the Colson instruments is that they
escape being set in a restrictive environnement , not fancy enough
to be looked for by the classical/baroque people ,( even if some
had label that said " Colson a Paris " ) and not folky enough to
be in the trad trad world , they randomly sprout here and there for
the greatest joy of the HG amateurs who live outside of France .
It seemed that they became the choice of the " Savoyard" when
their value suddenly decreased at the end of the 19th cent. , which
explain their erratic distribution all over the world . Maybe it is this
associations with beggars that explain the attitude of the Mirecourt
muséum ?
They were the first choice of the " Haute-Bretagne " for a while,
untill Pimpard came up with " vielle plate a haute éclisse " wich
became the standard untill replaced by the " universal luteback " <g>
Henry Boucher
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:09:26 +0000
From: Dave Holland <dave _at_ biff.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [HG] String adjustments, revisited
On Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 03:56:08PM -0800, John Woosley wrote:
> In my troubling experience with wolf tones, they did seem to gravitate to a
> single string rather than a set pitch; that is, a matching F# played on a
> lower string would not sound a wolf tone while the G string would.
That's interesting. The current issue of "Strad" magazine has an article
on wolf tones in cellos, and the author seemed quite certain that the
wolf tone was related to a particular pitch, because it was related to
the resonance of the instrument body rather than being a property of one
string. I wonder if your wolf tone is the same effect that the "Strad"
describes?
> Sometimes the problem would be constant, other times it would emerge after
> some playing time, or get worse (but rarely better... sigh.) So I do suspect
> warmth/humidity and other factors play a role.
I'm not an instrument maker, and not a terribly experienced gurdy
player, though I have a fair few years violin playing behind me... to me
that says "it's the string". Particularly if it's gut!
Cheers,
Dave
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