Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List - February 2002Our deepest thanks to Maxou Heintzen for this fabulous photograph, taken at Saint-Cloud near Paris in 1957 by an unknown photographer. The following are the archives of the Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List, sponsored by Alden and Cali Hackmann of Olympic Musical Instruments.
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= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:35:00 +0100 From: gerard.chatelier <gerard.chatelier _at_ wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: [HG] Mirecourt, on catalogues Graham, you surely know the guitare body Colson of "conservatorio di musica Luigi Cherubini" in firenze n°49 , picture in thecatalogue book:"collezioni dei Medici e dei Lorena" edited 1980 by Giunti Barbera Firenze and the luth body one from the "collection Hel " in Lille . Picture can be seen in the book edited by "Edition des musée de Lille " ISBN 2- 902092-11-3 I own myself a luth body Colson witch had originali a single tangent row (and of course a single nut ).and twenty years ago I added a second row (that ,if you play in G/C, add nothing but difficulties to tune ! ) Wat is curious is the sound post renforcement : it is not in the lenth of the central rib (as usual ) ,but in right angle glued transversal on the three first ribs. However theses instruments are very simply made and I feel very fine and elegants; but with a little pretty sound. I may send you pictures if you want.... Gérard Chatelier Nice France = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:30:33 -0800 From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net> Subject: [HG] Any folk danceing, in or near Paris on February 8,9,10 ? Does anyone know about any kind of folk dancing in Paris or close to it on February 9th or 10th. I already got the list from trad.org Thanks r.t. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:11:45 +0100 From: gerard.chatelier <gerard.chatelier _at_ wanadoo.fr> Subject: [HG] the COLSON in cité de la musique PARIS Graham, Page d'accueil Recherche Résultat 1/1 Retour à la liste Nouvelle recherche Icone recherche Accueil Accès aux périodiques Intruments et oeuvres d'arts Photographie Documents Facteurs d'instrument Détail de :Vielle à roue-Colson-Nicolas-19e (1e moit-MIRECOURT/FRANCE/EUR-E.1723 Numéro d'inventaire:E.1723 Nom de l'oeuvre:Vielle à roue Facteur : Colson Nicolas (1798 Date d'exécution: 19e (1e moitié) Lieu de fabrication : MIRECOURT FRANCE EUROPE Description: 6 cordes * Forme guitare * Fond plat en 2 pièces d'érable * Eclisses en érable avec 1 bouton en bois à l'éclisse inférieure * Table en sapin à double filet d'ébène et marqueterie ivoire et ébène * 2 ouïes en "C" * Cordier plaqué d'ébène à filet de bois naturel et cheville en ivoire * Cache-roue plaqué d'ébène à filet de bois clair * 2 taquets en ébène * Boîtier plaqué d'ébène à filet de bois clair * Clavier : 13 touches diatoniques en ébène; 10 touches chromatiques en ivoire, pastille de nacre * Chevillier à tête de vieillard * 6 chevilles en palissandre * Marque au fer, sur les côtés du manche : "COLSON A MIRECOURT" * (Source : Inventaire du musée) Dimensions: Longueur totale:670 mm Longueur caisse:470 mm Largeur caisse med.:160 mm Largeur caisse inf.:270 mm Eclisse:90 mm Largeur caisse sup.:190 mm Collection : Musée de la musique Historique: Mode acquisition:Don Date acquisition:31/03/1908 Document(s) : [12vert.gif] Photo - 10747 - Billing, Jean-C-Vielle à roue, Nicolas Colson, Mirecourt, France, 1ère moitié du 19ème, E.1723 [12vert.gif] Photo - 10748 - Billing, Jean-C-Vielle à roue, Nicolas Colson, Mirecourt, France, 1ère moitié du 19ème, détail, [12vert.gif] Photo - 13721 - Billing, Jean-C-Vielle à roue, Colson (Nicolas), Mirecourt, 1 ère moitié 19 ème, E.1723, chevill [12vert.gif] Photo - 13720 - Billing, Jean-C-Vielle à roue, Colson (Nicolas), Mirecourt, 1 ère moitié 19 ème, E.1723, vue d'e [12vert.gif] Livre - 4° L 187 - Palmer, Susann: - The hurdy-gurdy Notes:Photographie de travail n° 5812 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:00:30 +0100 From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de> Subject: Re: [HG] String adjustments, revisited Servus Simon At very first you have to be sure that what you turning IS a hurdy gurdy. A manual coffee grinder for instance looks very similar but sounds much more crunchy, ask Wolfgang, he is an expert! So if you have any soundproblems, you shouldn't change the guts but the beans!! Regards (BABA) Helmut :-)) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:49:53 -0000 From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk> Subject: Re: [HG] Colson , Henry, Thank you for your very interesting views, as you say, that would explain the indifference of the Mirecourt Musee From comments by Gérard the Colson is likely to be quiet and sweet, unlike my present HG which is best listened to at 50m !! Renee, I guess you wouldn't recommend visiting the Musee Graham Whyte = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:42:25 -0500 From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com> Subject: RE: [HG] Any folk danceing, in or near Paris on February 8,9,10 ? r u interested exclusively in French, or Breton, or Irish? Either way u can search at "la mission Bretonne" 22 rue Delambre Paris 14 metro Edgard Quinet.. Ginny = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:18:56 +0100 From: René Meeuws <meeuws _at_ msmp.demon.nl> Subject: Re: [HG] Colson , There's nothing wrong with this museum. It presents the history of the lutherie of Mirecourt, i.e. violins and other string instruments. But don't expect information about this little side-road, the HG. René Meeuws = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 10:38:50 -0700 From: Barry Black <bbc0 _at_ shaw.ca> Subject: [HG] Helmut's observation Finally something that I can get involved in! I make and sell coffee grinders and so can offer some advise in this area. Barry www.blackboardcreations.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:03:16 -0000 From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie> Subject: [HG] hurdy-gurdies for sale Dear all, This may interest those in the UK or Ireland. Due to lack of time to actually play them I've decided to sell my hurdy-gurdies, details as follows: Lute-backed hurdy-gurdy currently in Bourbonnais tuning by Paul D oyle 1984 after the Pajot in the V&A Spruce soundbaord maple pegbox and tailpiece with ebony veneer (boxwood inlay) the ribs are flamed maple and another unidentified wood. Keys are ebony and ivory. Included in the price are hard case and a selection of tune books Massif Central vols 1+2 and others. There is a slight crack in the soundboard near the one of the 'ears' but doesn't effect sound quality Price c. 1000 euro Guitar shaped hurdy-gurdy in C/G by Paul Doyle 1994 Walnut soundboard back and sides maple pegbox and tailpiece with ziracote veneer and ziracote wheel cover. Keys are ebony and tulipwood. New walnut veneered wheel by Chris Allen fitted 1996. Included in the price are hard-case and a selection of 18th C. music including fascimiles of Bouin/Dupuits and Corrette's methods, Fuzeau duet books other music by Boismortier and Corrette and others Price c. 1300 euro I'll organise digital photos of them next week regards Nicholas O'Sullivan Librarian St. Angela's College Lough Gill Sligo Ireland Telephone: + 353 (0) 71 43 580 Fax: + 353 (0) 71 44 585 E-mail: nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie Web address: http://www.stangelascollegesligo.ie = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:15:02 -0000 From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk> Subject: [HG] Fw: En reponse a votre demande Dear list, I got the following from La Musée de la Lutherie à Mirecourt. At least we have some accurate Colson dates now. Graham Whyte ----- Original Message ----- From: André BONNEVILLE <Andre.Bonneville _at_ wanadoo.fr> To: <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk> Sent: 02 February 2002 15:03 Subject: En reponse a votre demande Monsieur en réponse à votre demande : Nous connaissons trés peu de choses sur les Colson de Mirecourt. Il y en aurait eu deux. Le père Nicolas Colson né à Houécourt (à 20 km de Mirecourt) en 1785 et mort à Mirecourt en 1871. Il est dit luthier ou facteur de vielle. Il aurait participé à l'exposition de 1844 à Paris. Le fils, Joseph Sebastien Colson, né à Mirecourt en 1829 mort à Mirecourt en 1882. Il est dit sculpteur, luthier, facteur de vielle ou facteur de guitare. Il semblerait que votre vielle ait été fabriquée par Nicolas Colson. Je tiens ces informations de Roland Terrier luthier à Mirecourt qui tient à jour toutes les généalogies des luthiers Mirecurtiens. Brigitte BONNEVILLE Présidente des amis du musée. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 18:25:39 -0500 From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com> Subject: [HG] More old hurdy-gurdy fun! Ok, Watsons; we've had so much fun tracking down Colson, I thought I might enlist the help of the list in identifying a specific instrument. Can anyone help me figure out whether this instrument has a specific recorded history, as in a listing in some exposition catalog or other? Its owner would like to know if it has any kind of historical significance before deciding whether to restore it to playability using modern materials, and I'm not sure, but I think it's possible that it might have been some presentation instrument. I've posted some photos of it; but since they're not perfect, here also is a transcription of what the photos say. Anything I've typed in [brackets]is either illegible, or I just don't know what it says; check out the photos and you'll see for yourself. The side of the keybox has writing, as you may expect (http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/keyboxlabel.jpg): Maison fondée en 1863 a la brande renommée [_?_] fabrication d'instrumens NIGOUT A JENZAT (allier.) Admis a l'exposition unives{lle} the {lle} is "superscripted" (sorry, I don't know how else to describe it) - it's obvious in the photo. It has two labels on the inside of the keybox lid. The central one (http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/centerlabel.jpg): EXPOSITION UNIVERSELLE INSTRUMENTS À CORDE ---------------------------- A LA GRANDE RENOMMÉE de la fabrication d'Instruments de NIGOUT Élèvé de PAJOT fils, décédé a JENZAT (Allier). No. 1080De tout pri[sce] 1884 There's a little glare, so it's hard to read. Sorry... Then there's one pasted next to the center one, closest to the head (http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/leftlabel.jpg): GRAND[ __?__F]ABRIQUE DE VIELLES GARA[NT?]IES PAJOT JEUNE {Repair[i?]}A JENZAT{en 1893} Par GANNAT (ALLIER) The {Repair[i?]} and the {en 1893} are written by hand in the positions shown above. Again, it's obvious in the photo, although you can't read the year in the photo. In person, it's quite clearly 1893. The label inside the instrument is almost completely illegible, due to a coating of what must be centuries of dirt. I've made no attempt to clean it in order to read it. I CAN see that it's all hand written, and I can clearly read "1883", but that's it. Some other photos of the instrument: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/tailpiece.jpg http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/keyboxlid.jpg http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/keys.jpg http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/head.jpg http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/back.jpg -------------------------------------------------------------------- Matthew Szostak - Hurdy-Gurdies 7 Grove Street Camden, Maine 04843 phone/fax: 207-236-9576 email: gurdy _at_ midcoast.com website: http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle -------------------------------------------------------------------- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 22:48:49 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] From Colin found this advert in the Hobgoblin list of second-hand instruments- don't know any more about it but thought it may be of interest. Colin Hill >14H1081 French Hurdy Gurdy C 1875, Guitar shape, sycamore £ 1,995.00 In London = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 22:58:04 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Nigout, Hi Matt , From the book " La Vielle et les Luthiers de Jenzat " by Jean François Chassaing , ( 1987 ) Gilbert Nigout is an exception in the Jenzat tradition ,since he is not family related to the Pajot/ Pimpard dynasty . Born in 1837 , son of Pierre Nigout barrel maker in Jenzat. He became apprentice with Pajot-Fils ( Jean-Baptiste Pajot :1817-63) and will write it on all labels and catalogues for the rest of his life ( Pajot -Fils was the best known shop in the village ) .He is the smallest of all the Jenzat luthiers ( 1,55 m ) and will be exempted of military service because he is a widow's only son. Witnesses describe him wearing a "chapeau melon " ( style of hat worn by John Steed in " the Avengers ) His training probably was 6 years at Pajot , 2 years in Mirecourt and 2 years with Decante , he starts his own shop im 1863 and get married in 1867 , has two children : Marie-Louise and Jean Baptiste . In 1867 he goes to the " Exposition Universelle " ( world fair) in Paris . His son was born in 1871 , trained as a luthier but died in 1890 , so Gilbert worked alone for the rest of his life and the shop closed after his death . His work has a very good reputation . Three labels are showed in the book for Nigout , http://www.midcoast.com/~beechhil/vielle/nigout/centerlabel.jpg is the second one The instrument was repaired by Pajot Jeune ( the shop named Pajot Jeune , " Young Pajot" was founded in 1875 by Gilbert Pajot ( 1835-77 , his real name is Jacques Antoine and Gilbert is his nickname since his mother is Gilberte Pajot and his father is unknown . not to be confused Gilbert Pajot 1794-1853 .... I feel there is the substance for a soap opera here .... ) The head sculpture is like the one shown in the book . ( black haired , puffed cheeks person ) Why was it send to Pajot for repairs since the original maker was in the same village and still et work ? Maybe it was sold and re-sold in a different area where the reputation of Pajot Fils shop was greater than Nigout ? Hope it helps a bit , Henry Boucher = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:14:03 -0700 From: Barry Black <bbc0 _at_ shaw.ca> Subject: [HG] Re:Nigout Yikes Henry, you must have been there! What kind of bicycle did he ride? :) www.blackboardcreations.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 23:11:48 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] More old hurdy-gurdy fun! Matt said: >Ok, Watsons; we've had so much fun tracking down Colson, I thought I might >enlist the help of the list in identifying a specific instrument. Can >anyone help me figure out whether this instrument has a specific recorded >history, as in a listing in some exposition catalog or other? Its owner >would like to know if it has any kind of historical significance before >deciding whether to restore it to playability using modern materials, and >I'm not sure, but I think it's possible that it might have been some >presentation instrument. The person to ask doesn't have email as far as I know: the curator at the museum in Jenzat and the author of the book Henry was quoting from, Jean-Francois Chassaing. He has a registry of the still-extant HG's, and I'm pretty sure he has a lot of the old records from the Jenzat luthiers. It's hard to tell without seeing it in person, but from the pictures I'd say it's a fairly standard mid-to-high-end Nigout. Some Nigouts are really fabulous in sound, some are pretty average. At first glance I don't think there's anything special enough about it that it should be shut in a glass case. ;-) Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 23:25:04 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Fw: En reponse a votre demande A big thanks to you, Graham, and to Mme. Bonneville as well! I've always thought that the Mirecourt instruments' heads were particularly fine, and had theorized that both the Colson and Thouvenel shops had employed a local sculptor to carve them. This new information indicates that possibly they were carved in-house by the younger Colson. If Mme. Bonneville's information is correct, then Palmer incorrectly listed the birth and death dates for the elder Colson, and the working period and name of the younger. Hardly a surprise, but regrettable. Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:51:30 -0300 (ART) From: marcos kaiser mori <kaisermori _at_ yahoo.com.br> Subject: [HG] plans Hi, list! Does anyone knows where can I find plans for a simphony? I also would like to exchange any kind of hg plans. I have plans(now in better state) for the louvet from the musee de la musique (P. Jacquier 1980), and a Lasnier from the Germanisches National meuseum. For those with whom I lost contact (due to my situation here in Hungary) I ask for apologize. If I still can do something for you, please contact me. Marcos Kaiser Mori = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:13:48 -0800 (PST) From: Dennis Sherman <dennis_sherman _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [HG] plans George Kelischek was selling symphony plans, the ones he uses for the minnesinger model symphony he sells. As far as I know, the plans are still available, although he seems to have stopped selling the kit. The Kelischek Workshop can be found at http://www.susato.com I've been pretty happy with the symphony I built from the kit, and the plans I saw looked like they match. ===== -- Dennis Sherman Chicago, IL dennis_sherman _at_ sherman-erickson.org = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:40:40 -0500 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: [HG] saw my first hurdy gurdy Wow, I just have to write to this list to say that today is the fist day that I have ever seen a hurdy gurdy, Matt from Camden Maine came and showed my Husband, He played and explained all the working parts!!! It was WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!!! I now understand the absolute love of this incredible instrument!!!!!!!!!!!! I think I found a new love... Laura wife to Jim Winters = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:42:51 -0500 From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com> Subject: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy Player While on a used book hunt, I came across the "Purple Hurdy Gurdy" by George Callaghan. Check it out: http://www.kennys.ie/artists/callaghan/index.shtml Judith Judith Lindenau judith _at_ taar.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:34:01 GMT+00:00 From: martin.atkins _at_ talk21.com Subject: [HG] New member Hi list, I've been on the mailing list for some two or three months now, but have really been just too busy to get in contact. Appologies. Quick bit of info... My name's Martin Atkins, I'm a software engineer from the South West of England and, when I eventually finish buying my new house, I'll be out in the shed building my first HG. I've been interested in them for a good few years now, but haven't had anywhere I could call a workshop so as to build the thing! Right, off to work again. Hope to 'speak' to some (or all!) of you sooner or later. Mart = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:18:51 -0500 From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com> Subject: Re: [HG] saw my first hurdy gurdy > >I think I found a new love... > >Laura, wife to Jim Winters I'm pretty sure that Laura is referring to the hurdy-gurdy in that last sentence <g>. ~ Matt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:44:20 -0500 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] saw my first hurdy gurdy I still feel like I have a hurdy gurdy hangover... The morning after my love affair with this wonderful instrument.. How does one go on now with day to day life. I WANT ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Laura wife to Jim Winters P.S Matt. thanks for the great time "smile" Hope to see you again.. What is the least expensive hurdy gurdy I could buy.. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:51:56 -0500 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] builder question What an amazingly great instrument. How can it all seem so intriguing? This is for builders; is there anything secretly written on the inside of a hurdy gurdy, before it is sealed up forever? Like, I don't know, a poem or a confession to murder, or something really interesting. I just felt curious to know. Thanks your comments, jim = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 06:57:50 -0800 (PST) From: Chiara Negro <ghiro_chi _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [HG] saw my first hurdy gurdy Hi Laura ! I' m glad you too are infected by the hg virus : it's not dangerous, that's in this way for all us at the beginning, you awake one morning and you want a hg to play !! Hi list ! Ciao by Chiara = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:19:05 -0500 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] saw my first hurdy gurdy Just to say, I am delighted at my wife's response to the instrument. It was totally unexpected. I can understand liking Matthew. I also understand now the impulse to do double meanings. It was just the coolest demonstration. The instrument is just so great. For those of you not there, like everyone except the three of us and a few customers, it was a straight forward demonstration and introduction to the instrument, done by Matthew. It was at my home just north of Bangor, Maine. It lasted about two hours and Matthew used a sort of personal or experimental design instrument. Yet it was, as he said, a basic French approach in design. It had six strings in the regular way. It was a sort of modern, flat-backed design, in that sort of tear-drop shape. Somewhat like that, in very light wood, with sort of an art deco look to it. We did take photos, and I can ask Matthew if he would like me to make that available to anyone. A personal note is that I played it for awhile and I had never done anything like that. My wife was of course there, and I was amazed that she liked it so much. And as I mentioned in a different letter today, the instrument just seems to abound with mystique and intrigue. There must be secret messages inside them. It seems to have a transforming quality. May be it reorganizes brain cells in some secret and amazing way. Just mesmerizing to see and hear. One more thing, Matthew is an incredible builder. Me too Matt, thanks for such an amazing afternoon. jim = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:01:03 -0800 (PST) From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: [HG] builder question Some builders do this. Anybody want to commission a CT scan study of the insides of old instruments? Or know where we could pick up a surplus endoscope? These days, with the ability to get video images from all sorts of places that were previously inaccessible, the inside of a vielle is looking less secretive all the time ;-) Alden F.M. Hackmann darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu Web: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/hg/hghome.html "Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae." = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 17:18:38 +0100 From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de> Subject: Re: [HG] builder question Hi Jim, sometimes it happens that there are some drops of blood inside, I leave them as a sacrifice, hoping to get released once. But seriously, the most fun I have to make things really exact and smooth while knowing that nobody will see them on normal conditions. I think most luthiers agree. Greetings Helmut = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:15:59 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] builder question I agree with Helmut, there is a kind of special pride in making the inside of the instrument as beautiful as the outside even though you know that it will probably not be seen. I like to fit everything very carefully so that the joints are all just so and no drops of glue are left on the inside. :-)----Cali Hackmann = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:49:12 -0800 From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] builder question >This is for builders; >is there anything secretly written on the inside of a hurdy gurdy, >before it is sealed up forever? Like, I don't know, a poem or a confession >to murder, or >something really interesting. I just felt curious to know. >Thanks your comments, >jim That would be telling, now wouldn't it? Juan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:49:13 -0500 From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Nigout, Henry- Are you saying that the label shown in this fellow's book is the one from this very instrument, or just one like it? Is there any contact information for M. Chassaing? ~ Matt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:31:49 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Nigout, > >Is there any contact information for M. Chassaing? You can write to him at: La Maison du Luthier 03800 JENZAT France I don't have a phone number or email. Alden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:55:30 EST From: Maxoubbn _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Nigout, Hi Matt, here it is : jean-francois.chassaing _at_ wanadoo.fr Maxou = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:38:13 EST From: JudyHurdy _at_ aol.com Subject: [HG] Upcoming French dance in Olympia in April Hi everyone -- Our band "Feu de Joie" will be holding a French dance the evening of Saturday April 27th at at grange in Olympia. Eileen Little will be our caller. Anyone who would like more details (we're working on driving directions!) please email me back individually at JudyHurdy _at_ aol.com. The proceeds will be given to Pierre's family. Hope some of you show up! Judy Arthur Hixson--pipes, recorders Phyllis Solter--fiddle Judy Olmstead--HG plus, maybe, a few guests = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:44:13 -0800 (PST) From: David Smith <dtsmithnet _at_ yahoo.com> Hello, I noticed that there is a nice looking French luteback hurdy gurdy for sale on ebay. The builder is Maxime Boireaud. The seller is in the UK. You can view the site at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1512160739 About 6 months ago I also purchased a HG made by Maxime Boireaud off of ebay and it looks good and after I fixed it up it's starting to sound real nice. Keep cranking and droning, David Smith Dearborn, Michigan, USA = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:16:18 -0500 From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Nigout, Thanks, Maxou. My French isn't good enough to help me communicate - can I write to him in English, or should I have my correspondence translated? ~ Matt PS: Nina Bohlen and I are really looking forward to your workshop in March... = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:00:56 EST From: Maxoubbn _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Nigout, Hi, if Jean-François CHASSAING wants to have an international audience for the Jenzat Museum, he must understand english ! Maxou = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:14:56 -0500 From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Nigout, I'll take that as a yes...<g> Thanks! ~ Matt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:49:09 -0500 From: Bruno Cognyl-Fournier <fournierbru _at_ securenet.net> Subject: [HG] symphonia I have just finished building my first symphonia. Anyone who is interested in finding out how I built it, with very modest means, can contact me offlist Bruno Cognyl-Fournier Montreal, Canada = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:01:38 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: [HG] plans Hello, I have plans for a Henry III type , called in french " vielle Normande " http://www.e-m-s.com/cat/folk/folk/hurdygur.htm , but it is on blue print and I do not know how it will come out of the photocopy . I have the early version of the Dewit plan fot a Flemish HG , the one described in the Hackman's w-site , I have already made one like it and it works well and is easy to make , some pictures on this site : http://www.prydein.com/vielle/vielle.html I am mainly interested by your plan for the Lasnier , the Louvet also looks good A bientôt, Henry Boucher St Lambert Québec. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:07:22 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Quizz ... Hello all, Since things are a bit quiet , I propose a little quizz about HG bridges for your amusement ( and my education ) True or False , Bridges are ALWAYS made of maple . Wood grain is oriented horizontally , bark side facing the keybox . The proper distance with the wheel is 2 to 3 cm , closer for baroque farther away for folk . The bridge is glued on the table with an anchor pin is set at the base . Heavier is better A two footed bridge sound mellower than a solid base one . Bridges with string height adjustment have been prooved to be useless gadgets . Please answer in great number and feel free to add more affirmations , The winner get my sincere admiration and the four days of nice weather for his own use , at a time or my choice . Henry = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:16:12 -0500 From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org> Cc: boite _at_ sympatico.ca Subject: Re: [HG] Quizz ... Need to winnow this down a bit. Are we talking French HGs or all HGs? That would make a difference. What might be true for French instruments might not be true for Hungarian and vice versa. I assume you mean French instruments (since Baroque for tekerõ is sort of meaningless). -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:48:05 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Quizz... Good point Arle , I was indeed thinking in terms of ouest-europe instruments ( french, flemish, wallon and spanish ) but you can try the game with the hungarian, swedish HG or a symphonie , I do not think that the physic of vibrating strings knows borders <g>.... .... so , is the bridge of a tékéro always made of maple ? Henry = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:56:13 -0500 From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org> Subject: Re: [HG] Quizz... On my tekerõ the bridge is made of beech. I don't know if this is typical. Perhaps Balazs, if he reads this, can say. (Balázs, milyen fából készíted a "bridge"-t? Juharból, vagy bukkbol, vagy más fából?) -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:12:30 +0000 From: Matthew Williams <mattwill75 _at_ hotmail.com> Subject: [HG] Easier quiz? Cowardly beginners like me try not to think too much about the technicalities. My quiz challenge would be to find the shortest sentence (i.e. minimum number of words) that adequately explains to a first-time observer how the instrument makes its unique sound. [Yesterday I had someone convinced the handle powered a fan blowing air through a set of pipes!] Matthew Williams = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:36:47 +0200 (EET) From: Juulia & Esa <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi> Subject: [HG] Nordic droning coming soon Dear tribesmen and -ladies! Your collection of hurdy-gurdy -recordings is very valuable even without this, but not complete! My band Ihtiriekko has made a 5-track cd with some 17 minutes of Nordic traditional and contemporary folk-music. Drone-guarantee on 4 tracks, hgs on 3 of 5. Drones are provided by my vielles (groddalira and tekerolant), bagpipe, bowed harp, moraharpa - and sometimes even with human voice. We recorded the stuff live in studio with only some overdubs. The cd is not home-burn and it has a proper label and package with photos and informative text. We are selling this recording with 10 euros, including postage to all countries. The policy is that you send the money to us in cash (euros, GB pounds and US dollars accepted) and we send you the record. If you are not satisfied you can send a disclaimer to this list - this business is based on mutual trust and honesty. Also positive comments and reviews can be sent, I suppose... So, e-mail me privately to know more about the cd, if you like. Let me also know if you are willing to order it. The contact information is listed in the end of this message. Maybe I have to "place" this music to some genre or label it so that you can imagine what am I talking about? Well, with only little forcing I can twist my fingers to write this: if you liked Hedningarna and Garmarna (before machines), this is for you. Yours, Esa Mäkinen, Finland PS. Here is the sketch for the english translation of the information you get with the record, lyrics in finnish, swedish and english will be with too. IHTIRIEKKO 1. Hiiren häät 2. Lippa 3. Astu aallolle 4. Laulu 5. A du sett na Ihtiriekko Juulia Salonen Pekko Käppi Patrik Weckman Esa Mäkinen Hiiren häät Comp. & Arr. PW & JS, lyrics: trad. The mouse is getting married and this children's poem tells about the furious party and the mercyless faith of many innocent guests... Juulia: vocals, Pekko: vocals, djembe, Patrik: moraharpa, Esa: groddalira Lippa Trad., arr. PW This is a rustic, groovy jouhikko-melody from fisherman Feodor Pratsu (1851-?) from Koirinoja -village, Karelia. Pekko: bowed harp, Patrik: 10-string kantele, Juulia: willow flutes. Esa: jew's harp Astu aallolle Comp. JS, arr. Ihtiriekko, lyrics trad. arr JS A mystic voyage under the waves, riding with fishes Juulia: vocals, Pekko: vocals, bowed harp, Patrik: moraharpa, Esa: tekerolant Laulu Comp. & arr. JS, lyrics trad.arr. JS Singers praise their skills and the power of singing Juulia: vocals, Pekko: vocals, Patrik: bagpipe, Esa: groddalira A du sett na Trad. arr JS & PW A swedish polska with a drop of psychedelic spicing: "Have you seen my blue goats?" Juulia: vocals, Patrik: spilåpipa Instruments: Kantele is traditional fenno-ugric instrument. It 's steel strings are plucked with fingers. 10-string kantele on Lippa is made by AmF soitinrakentajat. Jouhikko, the bowed harp is a 3-string horse-hair fiddle. The player shortens the strings with the backs of his fingers. One string plays the drone. Jouhikko was used as dance-music instrument before the era of fiddles in some areas around The Baltic Sea. Pekko has made his jouhikko himself. Groddalira and tekerolant are rustic variants of hurdy-gurdy - family. Strong drones and freely buzzing rhytms are typical to eastern tradition of hurdy-gurdies. Groddalira is from Sweden, made by Leif Eriksson and tekerolant is Hungarian, the maker is Balázs Nagy. Bagpipe Patrik plays on Laulu is a Swedish model with single reeds, small bag and one pipe for melody and one for the drone. The bagpipe tradition lasted until 1940's in some parts of Sweden. This bagpipe is made by Leif Eriksson. Moraharpa is the ancestor of Swedish nyckelharpa. This bowed instrument was used also in other parts of Europe in 16th -17th century, as those who know Praetorius' Syntagma Musicum may remember. Moraharpa has three strings, keys are in 2 rows and the middle string plays the drone. Patrik has made his moraharpa himself. Spilåpipa is a rustic recorder from Sweden. Willow flute has no finger holes. It's natural scales are produced by altering the strength of blowing and by opening and closing the end. Willow flute used to be a spring-time amusement of kids and herders. Juulia plays bass and soprano flutes by Jean-Paul Yvert. Jew's harp is probably the most universal instrument. On Lippa you can hear the sound of a Norwegian harp by Björgulv Straume. He uses metal from wrecked bombers of WW II to his instruments. .......................................................... Esa Mäkinen & Juulia Salonen Variskuja /Kråkgränden 1b8 01450 VANTAA / VANDA FINLAND tel. +358-9-8235318 ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi website of our band: www.ihtiriekko.net (updates coming soon) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:02:48 -0800 From: "Meador, John" <john.meador _at_ unistudios.com> Subject: [HG] Herdy Gerdy or Hurdy Gurdy To list members: A small diversion away from the drone of string chat... A new game is available for PS/2 and the XBOX , and it is named "Herdy Gerdy". I don't know if the game features "Hurdy Gurdy" music as part of the gaming music. If interested , you can check out the web site listed below for a download of scenes from the game. The game involves Gerdy whose mission is to "herd" many different animals into their respective pens. http://www.eidosinteractive.com/games/info.html?gmid=108 John Meador UMVD Category Management John.Meador _at_ unistudios.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:20:02 -0500 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Easier quiz? <adequately explains to a first-time observer> <Please answer in great number> Hello Henry, A nicely cryptic entry, but seven words: ~Fiddle, however bow is a rosined wheel.~ What is the prize for the winner of the quiz? A hurdy gurdy? Just kidding, but your first quiz seemed fun. I am inadequate to answer that one (those questions.) Some more hurdy-gurdy trivia? Complete the following poem or lyric: Said cabbage to fish cake that sat on one dish, "I beautiful cabbage you only poor ______ ." ...................... = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:37:14 -0800 (PST) From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Easier quiz? --- Matthew Williams <mattwill75 _at_ hotmail.com> wrote: >[Yesterday I had someone convinced the handle powered a fan blowing air through a set of pipes!] I wondered where that rumour started, I occaisionally get questions about where the air intake is. <g> Roy Trotter = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:11:56 -0300 (ART) From: marcos kaiser mori <kaisermori _at_ yahoo.com.br> Subject: Re: [HG] Quizz... --- Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> escreveu: > > .... so , is the bridge of a tékéro always made > of maple ? > Absolutely not. They use any kind of material. As you said, there are no borders. Barsonyi even made it from pear. Marcos = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:42:47 -0000 From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Easier quiz? Ok then, who's going to build the first automatic Aeolian harp from this idea Colin? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:23:50 -0000 From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie> Subject: RE: [HG] hurdy-gurdies for sale Some photos of the hurdy-gurdies are at the following address: http://www.geocities.com/fvgves/hurdygurdies.html Contact me if you require any additional information Best regards Nicholas O'Sullivan E-mail: nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie Telephone: + 353 (0) 71 49405 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:54:33 -0000 From: Carol Jones <CarolJ _at_ btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [HG] plans Hello Henry, I have a Dewit hurdy gurdy, which I bought second-hand. It is by a Dutch maker called Frits Van Het Hoofd. Made in sycamore, it is very angular, no curves at all, trapezoid shaped. It was originally in C/G with a high G trompette, but I have re-strung it to play in D/G. Does this sound like the one you have plans for? I don't have any information about it at all and would be interested to know the origin of the design. Grateful to share any information you might have, Carol Jones. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:19:25 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Draailier , Believe it or not ,dear friends , there are still some areas that are hard to reach , even in the internet age <g> There are very few mentions of the flemish HG around , here is what I found and a fair amount of personnal speculations. The book " Making musical instruments " ( see bibliography in the Olympia w-site ) show some drawing of templates to make a HG , the finished instrument on the photo was made by Herman Dewit ( old 33 rpm covers show both spelling : " Dewit " and "de Wit " ) Mr Dewit is the leader of the band " 'T Klieske " ( 'T is the Vlaamse equivalent of the Neederlandse " Het " , so 'T Klieske means " Het Klieske " " The Small Band " , already you feel that research will be fun .... ) wich is a folk band created somewhere in the '70 in the good years of the European folk revival . He is also an instrument maker , singer , event organiser and probably also museum curator . The band is composed of his wife Rosita Tahon Dewit , Oswald Tahon ( hehien " arrangement is an hybrid French/ Hungarian design , the crank side show influence of the three lobes found in Henry III and de la Tour styles . I spoke with Mr Dewit once but is was in the middle of a busy event, so I got very litle info. From what I understand the design in the book wich is also the type of instrument pictured in the CD covers , is a synthesis of many old instruments found in the Netherlandse speaking country . This style of HG seems to by unknown outside of Belgium , to bad since it is a very clever design . To hear it either find a CD of 'T Klieske or this one, http://www.rouesetarchets.s5.com/groupe/album/album.html ( thanks for the publicity for my friend Nicolas who BTW also plays with the band MontCorbier , the new band of Daniel Thonon ) I met Mr. Het Hoofd in St Chartier ,( his english is not better than mine ) I think he told me that he had some kind of arrangement to build instruments of the Dewit design , wich seems strange since the design is presented in a book about instrument making , with dimensions and templates , I probably missed something in the conversation. There was another Belgian maker in the Walloon part , Jacques Feitweiss, who did the same type of research and ended with a somewhat similar instrument , with curved sides , in Wallon it is called a " tiess d'y djvas " , tête de cheval in french , horse head in english .. He did a booklet about it ( see Olympia w-site ) and recorded a 33 rpm with the band " Zunants Planquets " ( droning or buzzying companions , in Walloon ) where the bagpipe maker Remy Dubois also played . Mr Feitweiss died since . So this is all I know about these instruments , if someone can correct the informations I gave or add to it , please do . Off the soap box now , Henry = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:25:55 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Error , This link should work http://www.rouesetarchets.s5.com/groupe/groupe.htm = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:31:56 -0000 From: Carol Jones <CarolJ _at_ btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Draailier , Thanks very much - at least I have a starting point now! Carol = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:10:57 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] Draailier , Hello, here is a list of pictures in "Die Drehleier - ihr Bau und ihre Geschichte" by Marianne Bröcker, 1973 Verlag für systematische Musikwissenschaft (acctual edition 1997; in german); in the text of the following pictures it is said that they are "flemish" or from belgium or the netherlands: 33, 38, 39,59, 62 (*the* Bosch),95, 148, 150, 214, 215, 216, 218, 228, 235 (mainly historical pictures). This book can be found in librarys such as http://catalog.loc.gov/ it is nearly thirty years old but still a very good starting point for HG related research. Even if one does not understand german, with its 331 pictures, 60 musical examples, its bibligraphy, index of musical sources is still worth the effort to get hold of it. -- Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:25:18 -0000 From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie> Subject: RE: [HG] Draailier , Hi Henry, Can you recommend a particular t' Kliekske cd for Flemish HG regards Nicholas O'Sullivan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:59:39 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Bauernleier, Here is a German maker who makes instruments similar to flemish HG :http://www.saitenklang.de/ Since I do not understand German , I do not know if they are copies of old traditional instruments or modern designs ? Henry = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 01:31:10 +0100 From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de> Subject: AW: [HG] Bauernleier, Hi Henry, "Bauer" means farmer or peasant, "Leier" is a short name of Hurdy Gurdy. That means normally that they are just simple instruments. On the site I can´t find any further information about the instruments, but I don´t think they´re really copies of historic or traditional HGs. all the best Petra = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:32:54 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Bonjour Luc , Bonjour Luc , Happy to see you on this forum , I think you are the first Belgian here . Henry St Lambert , Québec = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:12:16 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] Bauernleier, Hello, Henry Boucher: > Here is a German maker who makes instruments similar to > flemish HG :http://www.saitenklang.de/ > Since I do not understand German , I do not know if they > are copies of old traditional instruments or modern designs ? as far as I can overview it, it is nearly impossible to say if a hurdy gurdy shape design is old, traditional, modern or whether it is from this or that region of europe. Especially not in a solution that allows to part historical pesant instruments by region. There is nearly no form that has not been built in more than one region during the last centuries and even forms which seem to be very "modern" can be found in historical examples. The only shapes that are maybe regionally attributable are central french lute-backs and perhaps ukrainian violin shapes. All further regionalities are not really shape related but in technical details, and again regionality vanishes if one overlooks long periods of history. technical developements spread out over europe and at different times one finds similar attributes at different regions. Also do not forget that the political/cultural regions of europe today are not what they where one, two, three or more centuries ago. And that "nation", the idea of a relation between language, culture and administrative unit are quite a new phenomenon. By the way have you ever asked yourself if irish music is truthfully irish since it is played on italian design violins and mandolins, greek bouzukis, french flutes, spanish guitars, viennese accordeons ... I belive that musicans never ever cared about the nationality of their instruments (exept nationalist ones). Musicans play/ed what was/is available on the market and what was/is fitting to their musical needs. cheers, Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:47:03 +0100 From: Pieter Lambrechts <pieter.lambrechts _at_ skynet.be> Subject: Re: [HG] Bonjour Luc , Henry, not exactly. There's at least two more (including me) cheers Pieter Leuven, Belgium At 22:32 15/02/2002 -0800, you wrote: > Bonjour Luc , > > Happy to see you on this forum , I think you are the first Belgian >here . > > Henry >St Lambert , Québec = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:10:40 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] From Cor Hi Carol The early version of the Dewitt planns, Henry is writing about, are the plans of the "huismuziekdraailier". It is the plan for a "not too hard to make" HG for an amateur luthiers organisation. There goes a book with the plans. Since these plans were released (1980) many improvements have been suggested. The tail peace and the "chien"system, for instance. I have seen and heard some of these Hurdy gurdy's and I'm afraid not so many sound or function well. Frits van het Hoofd made a few almost similar hurdy gurdy's but improved them, and they are ok. Apart from these and his own modells, he also made Dewitt Hurdy Gurdy's similar as described in the book by Botermans, Dewitt and Goddefroy: "Muziekinstrumenten zelf maken en bespelen".He had an agreement with Herman Dewitt about making them. Frits is the only professional Dutch HG luthier and his own modells and design are great. They look very modern, sound great and are superbly finished. I wonder which modell you play on, Cor Westbroek = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:49:33 +0100 From: Helmut Gotschy <Helmut.Gotschy _at_ t-online.de> Subject: Re: [HG] Bauernleier, Hello Henry, you'll find an illustration of a Bauernleier from 1619 on my website www.gotschy.com under history. Michael Praetoris listet all known insrument at his time in his book "Syntagma Musicum". Hurdy gurdies were not very highly respected at this time in Europe, the instruments were mostly played at dancings on the countryside an by begging people. The quality was expected to be low as good instruments always had their price - as today. On my reconstruction I fitted the gurdy in a frech style of strings (6) a trumpet an a full range keyboard (2 octacees), You can see the reconstruction after the Praetorius illustration in my catalog. Greetings Helmut = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:00:32 +0100 From: Reymen V <reymen _at_ pandora.be> Subject: Re: [HG] plans If there is anyone interested in flemish hg's or model Dewit ,please let me now.I made one ,have the complete book on making them ,the plans etc... I live in Belgium and it is rather easy to contact Mr Dewit. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:08:11 -0000 From: Carol Jones <CarolJ _at_ btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [HG] From Cor My Gurdy looks pretty much the same as the one being played by Nicolas Boulerice at htp://www.rouesetarchets.s5.com/groupe/groupe.htm. Mine is much plainer, though being made in light wood all over, and having S shaped sound holes. It has a neat little gadget for adjusting the position of the chien, which is useful. I am still a beginner, but I use it for a variety of music. I take it to French sessions, and also play a variety of Medieval and Renaissance music on it. I always explain to people that it is a modern instrument, not a historical copy, but all I really know about it is that it is Flemish! Carol. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:17:54 -0000 From: Carol Jones <CarolJ _at_ btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Flemish music, I am the proud owner of ONE flemish CD - by Ambrozijn (website http://www.wildboarmusic.com/ambrozijn/index.html including some nice gurdy playing on a couple of tracks, by guest musician Patrick Bouffard (?probably not a flemish gurdy?). Carol = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:50:42 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Folklore ahead ! This forum is getting very lively , I like that . I just wanted to set some definition of was is considered "traditional " because that word covers a lot of ground . As I said , it is the apparition of railways in many countries got city people to travel in their own countries and discover the peasant music , this added to the wave of nationalism that swept the world at the time . ( 34 countries obtained their independance in Europe and South America from 1820 to 1860 , Québec , in 1837 , was one of the very few that failed ) Some wise people decided to collect those traditional arts to protect them , but in the process also installed some arbitrary limits . For exemple in France , the bombarde and biniou were set as Brittany's " local instruments " leaving the East Brittany hurdy gurdy tradition as some kind of external pollution , same thinStill I am disapointed when I see a musician presenting a modern chromatic Swayne pipe as a medieval instrument <g> Henry = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:45:24 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] Flemish music, Hi Carol, Can you list the songs Patrick Bouffard plays hurdy gurdy on? Thank you. Jake Conte = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:52:46 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Flemish music, How nice to see these informations coming out , Flemish music is kept like a secret , wich is a very bad thing since many people would enjoy it if they ever got the occasion to hear it . Part of the problem is the words of the songs , some people seem tho think that one has to understand every word to enjoy the tune , if it was the case the Brasilian composers would never had known the success they have around the world . Personnally I like the sound of Flemish when sung , it follows the music very well . I went to my CD stock , I do not have all 't Klieske CDs but from what I have : " de Zavel-Boom " - ( Eufoda 1131 ) and " in 't Staminee" - ( Eufoda 1150 ) are my favorites , Also from Belgium : The group " Kadril" , I think they have a w-site , " de Vogel in de muite " ( Dureco 1154782) the HG is played by Hans Quaghebeur . and some more fantastic music from the group " Klakkebusse" where the HG is played by Philip Fourier ( Iep ) . " den Wind is west " ( Tune Records 860116 ) A good mix of early music and modern stuff . Is it possible to know if Mr Dewit would allow other makers to use his HG plans ? One Flemish tune was recorded by Blowzabella : " Jan mijne man " , on the Vanilla CD , I found that there were words to it : http://web.inter.nl.net/users/R.Hiddinga/kids/mijneman.htm but Babel fish does not translate Dutch , Would it be possible to know what the song is about ? Henry = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:46:47 -0800 From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Flemish music, Jan mijne man Roughly translated it goes: Jan, my man , wanted to become a knigh, Jan, my man had no horse So he took the cat and pulled it's tail Then Jan, my man had a horse Jan, my man , wanted to become a knigh, Jan, my man had no whip So he took his pants and pulled off a strip Then Jan, my man had a whip Jan, my man , wanted to become a knigh, Jan, my man had no hall So he took an egg and took off the shell Then jan, my man had a hall There is another Flemish tune on the first Blowzabella CD Juan > One Flemish tune was recorded by Blowzabella : >" Jan mijne man " , on the Vanilla CD , >I found that there were words to it : >http://web.inter.nl.net/users/R.Hiddinga/kids/mijneman.htm >but Babel fish does not translate Dutch , >Would it be possible to know what the song is about ? > >Henry = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:55:31 -0800 From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Flemish music correction > Jan mijne man > >Roughly translated it goes: > > >Jan, my man , wanted to become a knigh, Which should of course read 'knight' Well, I said it was a rough translation. Juan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:12:10 -0700 From: Barry Black <bbc0 _at_ shaw.ca> Subject: Re: [HG] Flemish music, They just don't write songs like that anymore :) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:52:40 -0800 From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net> Subject: [HG] Interesting web page about Blowzabella Here is a link to an interesting web site about Blowzabella. It is from Dave Sheppard's web site. http://mysite.freeserve.com/davshepfiddle/Blowzabella.htm He also has an interesting list of links at: http://mysite.freeserve.com/davshepfiddle/links.htm r.t. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:59:53 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Jan mijne man , So it is a children song ! By the way it is played I would have never guessed . Wich Blowzabella CD is the first one ? Wich tune is the Flemish one ? Henry = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:57:14 -0800 From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Jan mijne man , Yes, it's one of those stories that plays havoc with your sense of proportions. It's a lot more charming, but still as nonsensical, when the words rhyme. I am failing , however to fit these lyrics to the Blowzabella tune, perhaps there are more than one tune with the same name, If my memory serves me right, the Flemish tune on the first album, called Blowzabella, is called 'Kolomdans'. Juan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:47:34 +0100 From: "Allemeersch Luc, DELIGHT" <luc.allemeersch _at_ delight.be> Subject: RE: [HG] Bonjour Luc , One more from Belgium. I joined the list in february 2001. Best Regards, _Luc living in Brugge = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:05:01 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] Folklore ahead ! Hello, Henry Boucher: > This forum is getting very lively , I like that . > I just wanted to set some definition of was is considered "traditional > " because that word covers a lot of ground . > (...) > Some wise people decided to collect those traditional arts to protect > them , but in the process also installed some arbitrary limits . > For exemple in France , the bombarde and biniou were set as Brittany's > " local instruments " leaving the East Brittany hurdy gurdy tradition > as some (...) The story repeats in numerous countries , (...) > Fortunately, enough material survived for new collectors to find, this > added to whatever was created since compose a very rich repertoire . > My point is not to set people and music in close little boxes but just > to give to Cesar what belongs to him. I think I get your point. The admiration of the rich traditional heritage is common ground. My intention was to point at one of the "arbitrary limits" of the work of music historians and music collectors during the last one an a half century in europe: sometimes in full awareness often just beeing soaked in common ideological background a lot of nationalist ideology influenced the reception of popular music by music scientists. As you pointed out was the case with "local instruments" and in many cases with "local repertoire". Music scientists concentrated on finding special "local forms" and sorted out what they called, and still call ! "alien influence": the evidence for the very lively exchange of and mutual influence on the traditional heritage through all europe. If one does open minded research on its local tradition soon there will be evidence, that its acctual appearance is not much older than a mans lifespan. Things that are claimed to be at least hundreds of years unchanged emerge to be reestablished somewhen after they died out or are reimported from abroad. Or are quite recent *and* from abroad all together as are most instruments of todays traditional music. Many compositions in the Massiv Central tune book are from living musicans or by musicans who lived in the 20th century and this is no special case. It must be like that sice neither the schottische nor the polka or the mazurka and the walz appeared on the dancefloors much earlier than mid nineteenth century. > Still I am disapointed when I see a musician presenting a modern > chromatic Swayne pipe as a medieval instrument <g> Again I agree in you disappointment. But to me most of the problem is on the side of the audience and the event organizers: *No* music instrument from medieval times survived till today, exept a small number recorders. So, all our knowledge is from pictures, sculptures, and writing about music( the value of this kind of sources can be seen by trying to reconstruct a recent instrument from a recent picture like "Purple Hurdy Gurdy"). And again from the music historians (ideologically soaked) idea that some medieval music survived in *geographically challanged* ;-) parts of europe as part of traditional music. But the auduience demands for *real medieval* music and poor musicians fullfill this demand. This demand is silly and caused by ignorance, but a fact. Effectively why should it be more *medieval* to play a so called *authentic reconstruction* of something we do not know, eventually even built by the same maker as the modern instrument ? Just supplemented with some fur, leather and a bit of rustiqueness. In fact its pure ideology to belive that medieval instruments were bad. There is no evidence that medieval pipes coulds not play chromatic notes. Renaissance recorders for example have a bigger range than baroque ones have. Last but not least: even if the musicians *could* manage to reconstruct medieval music and even reconstruct all circumstances of performance, by avoiding social insurance, medical system and contact with electronic media and even by avoiding the use of electricity and modern transportation at all, the audience will never be able to listen to the outcome of this procedure propperly: Todays audience is definitely not medieval, at least its understanding of scales, thirds and chords is surely not authentic: what may sound "authentic" will surely not have the "authentic" perception by the audience. "Authentic perception" may if anyhow only be reached by adapting the musical action to recent audience. cheers, Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:37:37 -0500 From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org> Subject: Re: [HG] Folklore ahead ! This is a HUGE problem in the presentation of historical opera. The old serial or numbers operas are almost never performed now, and when they are audiences just don't get them. Even those by prominent composers like Handel are aesthetically so different from modern opera that we just don't know what to make of them. (Not to mention the lack of castrati with their vocal qualities and unusual physical appearance -- they tended to be quite tall and tower over other performers and had a woman's voice with a man's vocal power. Even counter-tenors today don't even approach this in an entirely acceptable manner.) On another note, the mere fact that people go to medieval reconstructions expecting to sit and listen to the music as they would a modern performance shows a very different aesthetic approach to the music from what any medieval attendee likely would have had. The idea of listening to music for music's sake seems to be very much a product of the 19th century. So we have a modern audience listening to medieval-esque music in a modern manner (with half the audience dressed up in what they think medieval clothing was like). Hmmm. Talk about an artificial context for the music. This is not to say it's bad, but that people who attend these things and think they are experiencing medieval life usually don't have a clue that they are nowhere near it. -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:07:17 -0000 From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Folklore ahead ! This is very, very interesting. I think we do forget that actual surviving medieval instruments are, to all intents and purposes, non-existent. Likewise, very little survives about the actual notes themselves. The chromatic scale we use today is a recent invention. Many instruments that can be purchased today (concertinas come to mind) that date back 100 years or so are not in today's "concert" pitch. Many so-called "folk" instruments are played in many different modes and this needs to be taken into account when reconstruction is attempted. We really know so little about the sounds they made that even reconstructions are little more than educated guesswork. I have a series of records by the late David Munrow featuring the sounds of dozens of early instruments - all of course, reconstructions. The point I am trying to make (probably not too well) is that all medieval and early instruments are an attempt to reconstruct what they may have been like drawing on relics, reeds found in tombs and written descriptions etc. Likewise, much music from earlier times has evolved into today's tunes. The 19th century tunes referred to may have had much earlier origins. I liked the last point regarding the audience perception of "original" playing. Today, it would probably be regarded as out of tune noise as Shakespeare, in it's original Elizabethan English, would be unintelligible to the listener. The words are the same but the pronunciation would have been different. It still stands out as the work of a great playwright! Thanks for the interesting points made. Most enjoyable and food for thought! Colin Hill = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:55:18 +0100 From: Pierre Amadio <pierre.amadio _at_ libertysurf.fr> Subject: Re: [HG] Folklore ahead ! Hello > medieval instruments are, to all intents and purposes, non-existent. > Likewise, very little survives about the actual notes themselves. The > chromatic scale we use today is a recent invention. Many instruments that Strange. I remember having a quick read on a yahoo's news some months (years ?) ago. The news told that archeologist had found some real old flute (whistle ?) that where played by neanderthalien guys. The news says that the longuest one had holes in it so it sounds like a modern flute, ie the note used where the same as in our modern whistle. I am no historian, neither musician, so i m not sur this is real news or not. But the idea that note are a discrimanative perception process based on something that is hardwired in our brain sounds for me not so stupid. Something to do with the chochlea and a fourrier transofrmation i guess :) Anybody with real musican/ethnology/history/neuro physiology knowledge here ? Pierre Amadio = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:01:45 +0000 From: ben grossman <nostyle _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] medieval modes and madness... Dear Simon et al, > The very basic of intonation is physics and can be expressed in its > language the mathematics so in a very basic meaning, yes it is possible > to link music to pyhysiological perception. > But there is no need for hardwiring it to the brain: > In this special case the physics of oscillating air do the job: some > frequence proportions react special, those represented by small whole > numbers. > Intonation *is* the description of the rules with wich (musical) sounds > are hardwired to all nature. Yes, quite true. What is interesting here is how and why some musical-cultures seem to prefer intervals clearly outside of the harmonies implied by the harmonic series of, say up to the 5-limit (Partch term). Bulgaria and indonesia come to mind at the moment. Clearly we must also differentiate amongst scales used in a linear, strictly monophonic style (no drone even), monophonic with drone, and chordal/harmonic (for our purposes, even with a moving drone a la cantus firmus or hardanger fiddle playing). These different ways of using a scale imply VERY different sound-worlds that are usually overlooked by musicologists analyzing scalar systems. Of course the g major scale (just or equal or what ever), for example has the interval of a minor second within it. Is it a scalar interval only? A passing dissonance? An expression of the 17th harmonic? An expression of the 16/15 interval in a just scale? Or can we accept that the minor second can be appreciated as a sonorous interval without the need to apologize for it? Musicologists who chose to deal with only the equal tempered scale or only the just scale in the analysis of music do the musical culture a disservice. My point is (if I have one!) that some exploration of what we can guess about the 'medieval' musical aesthetic should perhaps allow dissonance into the picture. Given all that was posted recently about medieval performance practice, I propose my definition of it as a 20th century form. All hail saint Binkley (and his acolytes, of course...). Which does not diminish it in the least! And without a doubt, medieval music (in it's day) was NOT all about Boethius, Pythagoras and Augustine. There must have been some flesh too! = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:03:43 +0000 From: ben grossman <nostyle _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: [HG] medieval modes and madness... Of course, I forgot to sign my silly message: Best regards to all, ben = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:28:10 -0500 From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org> Subject: Re: [HG] Folklore ahead ! The analysis of that artifact was quite controversial, with some claiming it was a flute and others arguing it was merely a bone with tooth punctures in it. I think the consensus was that it was a flute. The artifact itself was incomplete, but based on what was there the archaeologists and musicologists concluded that it likely had a diatonic scale. What that means though is not necessarily that it had a modern diatonic scale. Diatonic scales have a very long history, but the modern evenly tempered scale took a long time to develop. Older scales, like Pythagorian, can sound very strange and "off" to modern listeners in some contexts. It is not so strange to think that a diatonic scale would come up naturally. The acoustics of open and closed tubes will get you various diatonic scales when overblown. There is a Csango Hungarian instrument, the tilinko, which is a holeless long flute. Its scale is formed by overblowing the instrument with one finger either closing or opening the end of the tube, shifting the harmonic series available. At one point doing this you end up with a diatonic scale from C to C (in the most common tuning) with the fourth sharped and the seventh flatted. Granted, it's not our modern diatonic major scale, but it is one possible diatonic scale that arises quite nicely from the physical properties of tubes. Similarly the human vocal tract in "throat-singing" reaches a point where it produces a very similar sequence (in throat singing some of these notes are not used, leaving a pentatonic system). But remember that these scales, although called by familiar names, can, in fact, sound quite foreign to modern listeners because the inter-pitch relationships will not line up with modern ones. -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:41:18 -0500 From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com> Subject: [HG] hungarian HG Hello Arle! is there a site about Hungarian HG? or do u know easy hg music that one can purchase? I'd like to know more about it? Also is it possible to play it on a baroque French HG? Kosonom szepen! (sorry about thelack of accents) Ginny (Regina Marton) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:41:19 -0500 From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com> Subject: RE: [HG] Folklore ahead ! Hi Henri! I could not agree more on ur post, but can u pls explain more about Israel creating Klezmer music?? I always read that Klezmer is from Jewish eastern european tradition. As of Hungarian heritage I would find hard to swallow that Austrian Heritage would be considered as Hugarian... what about the Turks then?? :0) Ginny ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Klezmer music , instead creating this "Jazz-Folk " thing as their official folklore. South Africa bought a complete set of traditional sounding dance music with choreographies from a German composer in the early XXth cent , adopting it as official folklore . Hungary choose the Magyar style over the Balkanic and Autrian heritage , etc etc. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:55:29 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] Folklore ahead ! Hello, Colin Hill: > Likewise, much music from earlier times has evolved into today's tunes. The > 19th century tunes referred to may have had much earlier origins. this is not as sure as you might think. This idea of a longlasting tradition which contains bits of medieval (or even older) music is part of this ideology of *national* heritage to. Certainly there are things that come with the culture/social surrounding we are growing up and living in, but the question is if they are as unchanging as it is said. A musicologist once told me an example: there are recordings on edison-phonographs made in the nineteen-twenties from an old swiss man doing some jodeling, and for decades musicologists saw it as evidence for the survival of pre gregorian chant in his remote mountain area. Since an analyse of the melody led to the conclusion that what the man sung was acctually a slow version of a schottische which was popular in swizzerland in the eighteensixties. So changes may happen much faster than expexcted. Here in Austria, this is the part of the world I know about, it is common sense regarding the history of popular (dance) music that since mid eighteenth century at least four to five different consecutive forms of music and dance have followed each other: dronbased with HG and bagpipes (conic doubble-reeded in the older sources replaced by cylindric single-reeded later on) , followed by violin-music of the laendler-style, followed by the Schottisch/Walzer/Polka style the violins getting replaced by clarinettes, accordeons, brass instruments, and ongoing today the style which was created in the fitfties by a movement to preserve "authentic" folk-music (under hard pressure from those who never cared for authenticity and now make "modern" pop-ular dance music (from "schuerzenjaeger" to "DJ Oetzi")). cheers, Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:54:04 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] Folklore ahead ! now nearly OT Hello, Ginny Spindler: > As of Hungarian heritage I would find hard to swallow that Austrian Heritage > would be considered as Hugarian... what about the Turks then?? :0) Do not forget that until recently ;-) (1918) Austria and Hungary formed a common empire (for centuries). Besides the hungarian language which is a special case the cultural exchange with the european neighbours also happened in Hungary. Theirercent of the german population are of turkish origin. The islam is the second largest religious comunity in Austria (about 10%) - only the catholic church has more members. Sorry, I've no statistical numbers for Hungary. http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:59:46 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] From Thomas Hi everyone! Here the link to the neadertal-flute: http://www.webster.sk.ca/greenwich/FL-COMPL.HTM ;-)) Thomas _____________________________ AMSA Alte Musik Salzburg Austria http://www.altemusik.net/index.html eMail: thomas _at_ altemusik.net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:01:51 -0500 From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com> Subject: RE: [HG] Folklore ahead ! now nearly OT Oh yes absolutely!!! I guess that i was trying to say was that the reasons why people want to classify is sometimes an attempt to readopt a cultural? nationalistic? identity lost? for political reasons.I personally do not intend to add this option to my agenda. Half of my grandparents were born in Transylvania (Kolosvar, Klug) (they became apatrid after Versailles treatee and decided to leave for France where they still were apatrid in 43 when the French governemnent decided to sell them to the camps)and the other half near Budapest, as of the other half they are brittons and bergian. I grew iup in the red belt near Paris where I learnt bribes of Spanish. Yidish, Arabic, Hungarian, Rom Italian what have you! Going to hungarian parties with my family and bal musette gave me the love of bals, Irish Set Dance, balkanic dance and singing and now HG soon i hope now.. Servus!! Ginny = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:10:16 +0000 From: Beverly Woods <tradmusic _at_ earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Folk. ahead , Just to clarify, as I understand Henry's original post, his meaning was that adopted Israeli tradition was not based on Klezmer music, which is in fact, as Ginny asked, East European in origin. Am I correct in this interpretation, Henry? Beverly Woods = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:34:12 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: OT: Neanderthal flute [Was Re: [HG] Folklore ahead !] Hello, > > medieval instruments are, to all intents and purposes, non-existent. > > Likewise, very little survives about the actual notes themselves. The > > chromatic scale we use today is a recent invention. Many instruments that Pierre Amadio: > Strange. I remember having a quick read on a yahoo's news some months > (years ?) ago. The news told that archeologist had found some real old > flute (whistle ?) that where played by neanderthalien guys. hm. At least the text supplied with the picture of the neanderthal music instrument we got from Thomas (thanks) does - in my opinionn - mainly show that its author is not a real pro about intonation: "and will sound like a near-perfect fit within ANY kind of standard diatonic scale, modern or antique" I confess, this made me laugh. Sounds more like HOT shopping channel than like scientific information. Arle made the point about scales before. My tip: forget the text, enjoy the picture. > But the idea that note are a discrimanative perception process based > on something that is hardwired in our brain sounds for me not so stupid. > Something to do with the chochlea and a fourrier transofrmation i guess The very basic of intonation is physics and can be expressed in its language the mathematics so in a very basic meaning, yes it is possible to link music to pyhysiological perception. But there is no need for hardwiring it to the brain: In this special case the physics of oscillating air do the job: some frequence proportions react special, those represented by small whole numbers. Intonation *is* the description of the rules with wich (musical) sounds are hardwired to all nature. regards Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:06:11 -0500 From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org> Subject: Re: [HG] hungarian HG Ginny, I don't know of any specific good sites. I have a very limited bit of information on-line at http://www.ttt.org/tekero/. That includes some music for tekerõ. While you could play some tekerõ tunes on a French HG, one major difference is that the lowest note on the melody string of the tekerõ is *not* the tonic, but rather the dominant one octave down. Thus, if the instrument is tuned to A the lowest note is actually E. This means that some tekerõ tunes could not be easily played on a French style instrument in which the lowest note is the tonic. The dog also is quite different. The Hungarian one is considerably more strident and percussive in effect, and the handle is a different length giving different possibilities with the dog. One nice thing about the tekerõ, if you have sources in Hungary, is that citera (zither) music is traditionally very similar to tekerõ music, so the majority of citera songs can be adapted with little or no modification for the tekerõ. Citera music is readily available in Hungary at many music stores (ProFolk would certainly have it if no one else does). Take a look at the little bit I have posted and let me know if you have any other questions. Sok szerencsét! -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:07:52 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] hungarian HG Hello Ginny, arle lommel: > HG, one major difference is that the lowest note on the melody string > of the tekerõ is *not* the tonic, but rather the dominant one octave > down. Thus, if the instrument is tuned to A the lowest note is > actually E. This means that some tekero tunes could not be easily > played on a French style instrument in which the lowest note is the > tonic. On a french D instrument there are usually six strings tuned to drones: D d mouche: d trompette: d' chanter: d' d'' to get a setting similar to the tekero just replace the d drone against a G. Practically nothing gets lost since there is still the mouche for d and the d-trompette fitts to playing in G (I do not know how french HG players see this case).By the way, you can see this G tuning as playing in A at a standard pitch of A=392 Hz :o). I used a similar setting on a (british made, french style luthback) D-instrument for playing traditional music from Austria (this problem is more serious with french bagpipes since it is not so easy to change the pitch of its drone one fourth). By the way, there is a book, a kind of tutor for hungarian hurdy gurdy with some tunes included written by Bela Szerenyi from Budapest. I've got a copy but its at a friend in the moment, so I cannot supply you with the details. regards Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:00:04 +0100 From: Pieter Lambrechts <pieter.lambrechts _at_ skynet.be> Subject: Re: [HG] hungarian HG Hi Ginny and Arle, I have the book by Béla Szerényi you mention. As far as I know there were two language editions of it, german and french. I have the french version since the german version was sold out when I was at the Boldogkavaralja Hurdy Gurdy camp last summer. The french title is : "Musique traditionelle pour vielle en Hongrie" (Traditional Hurdy-Gurdy music in Hungary) at has no ISBN or colofon whatsoever. The book consists of five chapters. 1. the spreading and the use of the HG in Hungary 2. structure and different parts of Hungarian HG 3. Tuning and Adjusting the Hungarian HG 4. Basic Technique of playing the HG (barking, etc... :) 5. Transcription of traditional tunes based on original recordings If your looking for hungarian tekerõ music I would recommend the cd: "Szent Gellert Legendaja" by the Bokros Band (Bokros Zenekar) Bokros is a band consisting of members from the legendary 'Téka'-band, more precisely Pal Havasreti (HG player, among various other instruments) and Gyorgy Lanyi (viola and Duda (bagpipe)), together with Béla Szerényi and his wife Judit Kota and Mihaly Borbely. This cd has a lot of Tekerõ on it. The cd was published by : Periferic Records and distributed by Stereo KFT, H-1114 Budapest, Bartok Béla Ut 59, Hungary, Phone / Fax : +32 1 385 6343, +36 1 466 9474 (I don't know which of these is phone or fax), e-mail: stereoperiferic _at_ mail.datanet.hu I don't know if it is sold outside of Hungary. But you can always get it at Béla's booth at St Chartier or the 'Feestival' at Gooik Belgium. I also own a CD with field recordings of tekerõ music, made by Béla Szerényi. Best regards, Pieter Lambrechts Leuven, Belgium pieter.lambrechts _at_ skynet.be = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:51:59 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Folk. ahead , Bonjour Ginny , I took my information about Israël in the booklet of the CD " Klezmer Music from Tel Aviv " by the band " Sulam " , " ... the official cultural politics in Israël have promoted an independent culture wich does not corrsepond to the exile of the past .... " In fact , in North America , Montréal and New York for exemple, the Yiddish language and culture came close to extinction by the end of the ' 60 , fortunately some people made it available to the rest of the world and today Klezmer music is enjoyed by all . In Montréal there are two Klezmer bands composed mostly of Catholic French Canadians . About Hungary , the life of Bela Bartok is a good exemple , pretty much the same happened to the group " Kolinda " in the '70 , when they had to record their albums in Paris because the the Hungarians did not like the Slavic and Turkish influence in their music . From more uncertain source ( call it a " field informant " <g>* ) I heard that in the " Pest " part of Budapest , existed an accordéon tradition called " szremly " ( spell .?) that was never recorded because it was considered " too German " , I take the occasion to ask our Hungarian contingent if there is any thruth to it ? BTW, Ginny , is the red belt of Paris limited to the south part or does it goes to the north , namely the porte St Ouen , Jango Reinhart country ? Henry * I heard from honorable source that in modern times , field recording is often really " bar recording " but field recording looks better on request for grants <g> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:43:30 -0500 From: John Roberts <anglo _at_ albany.net> Subject: Re: [HG] Folk. ahead , Have you been listening to English CDs at Daniel's house, Henry? John Roberts. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:42:37 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: [HG] Slippery ground ahead ! Hi Beverly , I mentioned that Israël decided not to include Klezmer , in fact there were numerous Jewish music traditions to either choose from or ignore . I leave the detailed analysis to the experts . For my part I choose to mention Klezmer because I like it very much and I think it would have been a terrible thing to loose it . Henry = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:49:20 -0500 From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com> Subject: RE: [HG] hungarian HG Thanks Simon! Ill keep this in my folder ! Ginny = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:49:22 -0500 From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com> Subject: RE: [HG] hungarian HG Ok I can try by my relatives in Budapest...who knows?? Ginny = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:09:26 -0500 From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com> Subject: RE: [HG] Folk. ahead , Salut Henry! I think that when Klezmer was mearly extinct in North AMerica, it was still carried in Europe with Yiddishe theater etc...Nu? I loved Kolinda's work at that time... it was of course privilieged at that time with the folk explosion in France (LA vieille Grille for example had incredible bands all the time, Malicorne, Kolinda, Roger Mason etc..) I dont know what the band is doing now..Although I have some hungarian books of the sixties of Bartok and Kodaly compilations , as well as recordings, which were not " pure magyar".. The red belt (north of Paris) goes more or less from Saint OUen, Saint Denis, La courneuve, Bobigny and Drancy etc ...I was born in Drancy near the old concentration camp, and was bred in Blanc Mesnil..Between Drancy and Bobigny. Yes Django is a good representation of the kids born in this fringes, although by the time I was born Gypsies living in "la Zone" ( "slums" made mostly of Gypsy carriages)were given cheap housing (HLM). This the era of l'abbe Pierre and EMMaus. Later the area of the Zone (Drancy) close to wehre i was living was transformed in lots and schools where I went to. nevertherless the gypsies who did not fly away to other cities down south were still pretty much into playing music at night in bars and all. Roms were much more influencing thanthey are now when Gitanos are thought as gypsy music ( i like it too!). Since all of these cities were communists we had access to a lot of things coming from behind the Iron curtain.. Ginny Henry = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:09:29 -0500 From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com> Subject: RE: [HG] hungarian HG Ok Ill go there too!!!:-) cokolom!! Ginny Ginny, I don't know of any specific good sites. I have a very limited bit of information on-line at http://www.ttt.org/tekero/. That includes some music for tekerõ. While you could play some tekerõ tunes on a French HG, one major difference is that the lowest note on the melody string of the tekerõ is *not* the tonic, but rather the dominant one octave down. Thus, if the instrument is tuned to A the lowest note is actually E. This means that some tekerõ tunes could not be easily played on a French style instrument in which the lowest note is the tonic. The dog also is quite different. The Hungarian one is considerably more strident and percussive in effect, and the handle is a different length giving different possibilities with the dog. One nice thing about the tekerõ, if you have sources in Hungary, is that citera (zither) music is traditionally very similar to tekerõ music, so the majority of citera songs can be adapted with little or no modification for the tekerõ. Citera music is readily available in Hungary at many music stores (ProFolk would certainly have it if no one else does). Take a look at the little bit I have posted and let me know if you have any other questions. Sok szerencsét! -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:31:20 -0800 From: W. Jason Naylor <pan _at_ dreamerdesign.com> Subject: [HG] HG's for sale Hey guys. I was in Maui when these notices came through: >Lute-backed hurdy-gurdy currently in Bourbonnais tuning by Paul Doyle 1984 >after the Pajot in the V&A >... > >Guitar shaped hurdy-gurdy in C/G by Paul Doyle 1994 >Walnut soundboard back and sides maple pegbox and tailpiece with ziracote >... > >Nicholas O'Sullivan -and- >Hello, >I noticed that there is a nice looking French luteback >hurdy gurdy for sale on ebay. The builder is Maxime >Boireaud. The seller is in the UK. You can view the >site at: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1512160739 > > >Keep cranking and droning, >David Smith -and finally- >Some photos of the hurdy-gurdies are at the following address: > >http://www.geocities.com/fvgves/hurdygurdies.html > >Nicholas O'Sullivan What do you guys think of these instruments for a beginning student? Thanks so much for your input. Peace Jason = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:42:44 -0800 From: W. Jason Naylor <pan _at_ dreamerdesign.com> Subject: [HG] Apologies I meant to send the previous message to duodrone, not the entire list. Sorry about that. Now I suppose I ought to introduce myself. I am a writer/musician/producer living in Southern California. I have always enjoyed hurdy-gurdies and the musics associated with them, and got seriously bitten by the bug this last year at the Topanga Banjo and Fiddle Contest. Since then I have been lurking on the list watching for good beginner instruments, and it seems like Mr. O'Sullivan's lute-back might be just right. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:27:25 -0500 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] hungarian HG Is there a term: Gurdyologist? May I suggest it. Meaning: someone who has the passion of knowing the historical forms of the instrument. With Hungarian hurdy-gurdy music, I wish to offer this information as a possiblity. PassOn Music (in England.) Ian is just great. He has a nice policy for payment, I think that cash in a package can be acceptable, but ask him. I know; I know. But that is only for the rare person without a credit card. He has a very, very good inventory of Hungarian recorded music, everything in stock, and his turn around time for filling the order there is one day. Mailing has only been one week each way. I was very pleased. Example; web link to a very great CD he has: http://www.passion-music.co.uk/e_pages/hung_e/bgcd_083.htm address: PassiOn Music 37 Lion Lane Overton RG25 3HH England/ UK Europe .............. t: ++ 44 1256 770747 f: ++ 44 1256 770747 www.international-records.com www.passion-music.co.uk www.passiondiscs.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:29:55 +0100 From: Cor Westbroek <bourree _at_ hetnet.nl> Subject: Re: [HG] From Cor Hi Carol, The instrument of Nicolas Boulerice looks like the one from the "Botermans cs book". I'm nor sure because the picture isn' t very clear but it looks like that one. This chien gadget is indeed very handy. It makes almost every chien fit right. I'll tell Frits that his instrument is mentioned in this list. He 'll like that. Bye Cor Westbroek = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:08:44 -0500 From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com> Subject: [HG] Folk dance in France I cant remember who wanted info re folk dancing in Paris Francr?? I just received the following: Tuesdays at 20h30 in the 20th, metro Télégraphe. The MJC des Hauts de Belleville on the rue Borrego has courses with Marie-Odile Chantrain. happy dancing! Ginny = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:08:45 -0500 From: Ginny Spindler <ginnyspi _at_ francomm.com> Subject: RE: [HG] hungarian HG Thanks!!!! ++++++++ Example; web link to a very great CD he has: http://www.passion-music.co.uk/e_pages/hung_e/bgcd_083.htm address: PassiOn Music 37 Lion Lane Overton RG25 3HH England/ UK Europe .............. t: ++ 44 1256 770747 f: ++ 44 1256 770747 www.international-records.com www.passion-music.co.uk www.passiondiscs.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:53:01 -0800 From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: [HG] From Cor Hi Cor , The book was used to make the templates for Nicolas 's HG and mine , Frits saw it in 1998 at St Chartier and Nicolas say he looked please at the time, to see somebody else using this design , in 1999 when he saw mine , he looked woried . This is why I would like to know if there are copyrights on this design ? Henry Cor Westbroek a écrit : = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:10:23 +0100 From: Cor Westbroek <bourree _at_ hetnet.nl> Subject: Re: [HG] From Cor Hello Henry, I don't think there's any copyright on the design. It would make no sense publishing it in a book so that anybody can make these instruments. As far as I can recall, the agreement between Frits van 't Hoofd and Herman Dewit was : Herman got orders to make the instruments and Frits actually made them. It was something like that. I'll ask him when I see him to be sure. Bye, Cor. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:56:41 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] From Joan Hi everyone. I recently read this quote on the early music list and thought it was interesting. "On my gamba I learned to put on as much string as possible wrapped around the peg. Then I can feed out string as the bowing area wears." What would be the result of doing this on the HG? Is the degree of wear to the string being bowed by the wheel greater than to a string being bowed by a bow? Is the string itself weakened enough where the tangents push it? Is the average string used on an HG originally long enough to allow for "spooling" it out from the peg far enough to make it serve double duty? Is there enough room in the peg box for the excess string? Any other comments? Joan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:52:29 -0800 From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net> Subject: [HG] From Beverly Woods For the real lowdown on this kind of question, you may want to sub**scribe to the Jewish Music list at shamash.org, and/or read Henry Sapoznik's book on klezmer. I am not an expert on the roots of klezmer, having only been substantially involved in klezmer for a few years, but so far as I understand and have heard, klezmer is specifically instrumental, and Yiddish theater music bears little resemblance to klezmer, although many modern klez bands include some theater repertoire in their performances. But basically I believe Yiddish theater music bears approximately the same resemblance to kezmer that music hall "Irish" bears to traditional Irish instrumental music. Also the European klezmer scene was of course nearly erased by the Holocaust, and the musicians who survived in the US (many of whom had emigrated before 1930) were a large part of the survival and revival of the music, somewhat the reverse of your statement below. Beverly Woods = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:55:40 +0200 From: Peteris <stumburs _at_ ihouse.lv> Subject: [HG] Traditional Russian church music Hello, list! There was nice concert in Latvia, Riga, this weekend. Russian orthodox churc choir from Moscow performed traditonal music, also with HG(for my surprise!). Later conductor Anatoly Grindenko(also great early music and baroque performer) explained me - this is really ancient traditition, they use HG as bourdon. Peteris = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:44:03 -0500 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Traditional Russian church music That's incredible. Anatoly Grindenko is the most famous person doing that recreation work of that kind of material. jim = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:49:50 -0500 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] Traditional Russian church music Traditional Russian here means Orthodox music. I know of three CDs that have this style of choral or similar solo music with the hurdy gurdy. One from Moscow, and two from the Ukraine. Also, here is a absolutely great site with pictures and a book. http://www.brama.com/art/kobzar.html It is worth a look. best wishes, jim = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:38:11 -0800 From: Nathan Roy <imakhy _at_ hotmail.com> Subject: [HG] How do I start? Dear list, I've had my HG for about a month now, and frankly, I'm a bit at a loss as to what to do with it next! Alas, those early visions I entertained during its construction (instant viruosity, the admiration of all, constant feverish pleasure, etc.) have been brought abruptly back down to earth. Don't get me wrong... the instrument is just what I expected, it's me that's the problem! How do I get myself good at the thing? Okay, here are my concerns: First, I'm reluctant to practise for fear that I'll somehow develop bad habits. The Muskett Method just doesn't give me enough first-hand confidence to proceed boldly. Are there any serious errors that could conceivably cripple my future playing ability? Also, my lack of maintenance know-how keeps me constantly on the edge wondering if I'm going to saw through the strings. Basically, I suppose the underlying problem is that I've never had any lessons from a real player. (Should have picked the guitar if I wanted dime-a-dozen instructors, I guess) It would be foolish to simply leave it in the corner until I can attend a festival. Should I plunge headlong into my method and correct any problems later on, or proceed more carefully? This perfectionism of mine is such a burden! If only I were more free and artistic... Now that I think about it, another obstacle is the fact that, unlike the cello, there isn't a one-to-one correlation between written music and finger position. It's all a continuum, so I can't use any of that previous music-reading ability! Anyway... Your advice would certainly be appreciated. Perhaps one day I'll be able to fulfill something of those lofty expectations. For now, simply getting myself to start down that path seems an achievement in and of itself. Sincerely, Nathan Roy = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:14:52 +0100 (CET) From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it> Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start? Dear Nathan It could be possible to write "a lot" about this subject, but I think that is hard to give good advices by mail (you already got a good method, that is written the same :o). These are my suggestion: 1) try to meet other HG players (or try to have a real "lesson"). One hour together with a good player worths month together with a good method 2) don't forget the gurdy...if something is wrong it could be your own fault or your gurdy fault...even the best instrument can play badly if you're not able to make a good "maintenance" (that's to say, part of your first lesson has to be devoted to gurdy setting up). There are some good books about it. 3) be relaxed....if you got pain somewhere in your hands shoulders, arms, neck and so on stop playing and relax.....and then change your position..... Some stretching can help, expecially at the beginning, when "tech problems" make you feel stressed about your playing instead of your body position. 4) don't forget to have fun with your instrument: sometimes an hour of exercise made in a bad mood worths less than a badly played tune. 5) realize that it was exactly the same for lot of good(now) players, the best ones of them never forget this, and will be happy to help you! Ciao ===== Marcello Bono my hurdy-gurdy page is http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:47:26 +0000 From: Matthew Williams <mattwill75 _at_ hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start? Hi Nathan, Stop worrying! I don't know a lot (been playing only 4 months), but I do agree with Ciao that you could ease back a bit on the 'oughts' and go a bit more on the 'fun'. Pick one or two of the funkier Mussett tunes, shut yourself away from sensitive pets, then do these tunes over and over again until you find yourself dancing. Worry about debris and smoke damage only if it happens... Matthew = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:41:56 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start? Hello Nathan, Marcello wrote what is neccessary to write. Real Lessons are vital as is having fun. Matthew Williams: > Stop worrying! I don't know a lot (been playing only 4 months), but I > do agree with Ciao that you could ease back a bit on the 'oughts' and > go a bit more on the 'fun'. Pick one or two of the funkier Mussett > tunes, shut yourself away from sensitive pets, then do these tunes > over and over again until you find yourself dancing. Worry about > debris and smoke damage only if it happens... Methods are written the way they are not because the authors belive that it is enough to pick some funky tunes. Removing the debris is much more work than learning how to do it right. It needs about the same amount of time to get rid of a bad technique as you stuck with it. So do not pile debris for long periods of time. Even if this means that you drive 200 km for a monthly lesson. Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria -- http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:29:24 +0000 From: Matthew Williams <mattwill75 _at_ hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start? Hallo Simon and Nathan, Point taken Simon, I know you are right, but it must be a matter of balance (like starting to ride a bike?). As a fellow novice I do sympathise with you Nathan. If a fear of imperfection is stopping you playing at all having got the instrument, I merely suggest setting aside the worries for a while in order to unlock the paralysis and get going. Once you can relax a bit while playing (and get the buzz?), I'm quite sure you're the sort of person who'll be able to apply the good advice available in the Methods and from any opportunities for tuition from expert players. Matthew = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:23:03 +0100 From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at> Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start? Hello, if one is not an educated musician when beginning to play the hurdy gurdy ( I do not know if this applies to you) there is one thing that is probably more important than even hurdy gurdy lessions: basical music expiriences. So join a local choir, folkdance group, participate in classes about percussion, dance, singing - no matter if its tango, gregorian chant, west african drumming or what ever. Nearly everywhere one can find classes in basic musical education or musicians/music teachers who can teach the basics about time keeping, counting, rhythm, intervals and intonation. Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria -- http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:23:00 -0500 From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com> Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start? Dear Nathan, Don't be too negative. You have already started. One can be made to think of the sort of wisdom such as to enjoy the journey and not feel that it is only about getting somewhere. Where ever there is, but I suppose you have written about that in a whimsical way--of being really great, of virtuosity, of admiration and pleasure with the hurdy gurdy. You forgot fame and money, perhaps. I do wish to ask some details. I wish that my asking would not deter anyone else much more knowledgeable from writing to you. My humble, mere idle curiosity would be as follows--and best wishes with everything: Do you have just the one book? {I hear that Michael and Doreen Muskett have a new, matching CD for sale that goes with their book; you'd have to write to them.} What sort of a hurdy-gurdy did you make? Where are you located? What caused you to be interested in this instrument? What musical experiences do you have so far? Are you getting family support? I realize that funny jokes abound about pets and people running for their lives. Do you offer any photos such as a personal web page about your instrument? from, jim (in maine) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:03:27 -0800 (PST) From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start? Hi Nathan, --- Matthew Williams <mattwill75 _at_ hotmail.com> wrote: >Point taken Simon, I know you are right, but it must be a matter of balance (like starting to ride a bike?). As usual, I completely agree with everybody. I'm not specifically aware of any formal lessons in the Americas, (anybody that does is encouraged to step up...), so festivals and informal meetings might be your only option for live instruction. The Muskett book is about as good a method as is available in English. I'd also recommend Maxou's book (+tape (I got it from Dusty Strings)) to address the 2 elements that Ms Muskett doesn't really cover: handling the chien as a percussive accompaniment, & improvising variations. The worst "bad habit" you are going to pick up from the Muskett book is the tendancy to only play one coup per note. That style of playing is necessary, but you also need to be able to do other things and it is very difficult to retrain, or "unweld your hands". There's an extensive discussion of this problem in the early pages of the list archives. As Matthew suggests about balance: do both, learn the Muskett lessons AND make sure you take some time to play the tunes with the buzz only on the down beats, only on the upbeats, setup a "dum-diddy,dum-diddy,dum-diddy" pattern like the start of "Rakes of Mallow" or the "Bonanza" theme and play every 4/4 tune you can think of. &c,&c,&c. The other "bad habit" to avoid (everybody addresses this, but you wind up doing it anyway) is "running out of fingers". Make a habit of setting yourself up for the next note or two. Good luck. Don't let maint cow you. You built the thing, didn't you? Maint is an ongoing quest for perfection, but it's a snap compared to making a 'gurdy that actually works. As a cellist, I'd bet you have a good ear for intonation, that will be valuable keeping the tangents in tune. Most of the rest has to do with Cotton and Rosin. You probably *will* need to experience that part live before it will make any sense. Even having been shown it, there's still going to be a lot of experimentation (call it "fiddling", it sounds more fun) to get the best sound of your particular instrument. As far as "smoke and debris" goes, most people give up and recotton or take off some rosin with a (100% cotton) rag long before the 'gurdy bursts into flames.... probably because they can't stand the noise <g>. And please let us know if you cut a string on the wheel. I haven't figured out how to do that yet. One other thing I would encourage you to do is think of a song that you can sing or whistle all the way through and find it on the HG in several different keys. This will get you really familiar with where the notes are on the keyboard. One of the greatest feelings there is comes from being able to play an unrehearsed request in performance. I have noticed that as my ability to do this improves, the muse visits me more often with some variations to explore. This is a lot longer-winded than I'd like and I must admit that the only thing I'm an expert at is being alone. I do get the occaisional meeting and find out what I'm doing wrong, and then concentrate on my newly discovered weak points until next time. Live contact is indispensible. IF you can get lessons, do. If you can't then get serious about meeting. Do whatever you have to to get to the OTW festival and any local events. Talk to the Early Music people and the Rene crowd, they may know somebody. You'll notice that some parties advertise their travels on the list for this very purpose. Incidently, I live within 100 miles of DFW airport (Dallas/Fort Worth). E-mail me if you think you'll be passing thru. Sincerely, your foaming-at-the-mouth-gurdymanic, Roy Trotter = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:53:53 -0800 From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ attbi.com> Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start? Nathan, I guess I'm living proof that you can start with a good working hurdy gurdy and the Muskett book and not end up festooned with bad, unbreakable habits. My HG odyssey began in 1985 with a volksgurdy that arrived on my Seattle doorstep sans instructions, so of course the first thing I did was run my fingers over that lovely, smooth wheel. Fortunately, the fingers were clean and no damage was done until later that day, when the phone rang and I jumped up with the gurdy still strapped on and slammed the headstock into the door frame. Anyway, the worst problem I developed in those days of solitude was a fear and confusion surrounding maintenance, particularly getting the cotton correctly onto the strings so the pitch wouldn't wobble around. It really isn't that hard, but I lacked a basic understanding of what I was trying to do so my results were mysteriously, frustratingly inconsistent. If you have similar problems, and can't find a more experienced player to give you some in-person help, we on this list could try distilling the info into text for you. You could also get a copy of the wonderful book by Destrem and Heidemann ("The Hurdy-Gurdy"), which takes you through cottoning and many other maintenance procedures, step by step, with photos, in three languages. Also, I agree with Roy about how hard it is to unhook your hands from one another after spending too much time playing in the "one coup per note" style that Muskett presents. It's a great thing to learn, but it shouldn't be the only way you can play, so I second his suggestion of practicing alternate coup patterns alongside the Muskett exercises. What part of the world do you live in? Hurdy-gurdy players are a small but growing community, and there may be someone closer than you think who can help you get started. In the Seattle area there are several of us who teach and/or offer support to beginners. I also travel some; twice a year I usually spend some time near Augusta, Georgia, and this year I'll be in New Mexico in April, California (Mendocino) in August, and maybe Michigan (near Kalamazoo) in July. Cheers, Anna Peekstok + + + + + + + + + + + http://www.telynor.com + + + + + + + + + + + = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:59:22 -0800 From: Rita Glenn <lady9 _at_ earthlink.net> Subject: [HG] How do I start Hello, I have been reading the 'How do I start' letters and I must say that I have had similar thoughts about playing the hurdy gurdy and I don't even have mine YET. I am having one made and can hardly wait until I get my hands on it, but I have thought that since the hurdy gurdy is a relatively 'NEW' instrument in our country for public enjoyment, I am thinking that music books for this instrument are few and certainly technique books are also. I have been trying to follow the information that has been coming e-mail regarding the different technical problems that the HG musician faces and I know that I will probably have those problems as well, but it becomes mind boggling and frankly I am having some reservations about being able to play the instrument. I have been playing the piano and related keyboard instruments since I was 4 years old so do not feel inhibited about that, but I feel that learning the technique of playing the hurdy gurdy is going to be a challenge and I am going to need some tutorial help. I live in the Puyallup area. Does anyone know if there is anyone in my area that plays the HG? In the mean time, I am waiting and wondering---------- Rita = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:43:44 -0500 From: Judith Lindenau <judith _at_ taar.com> Subject: RE: [HG] How do I start? Anna sez: and this year I'll be in New Mexico in April, California (Mendocino) in August, and maybe Michigan (near Kalamazoo) in July. Judith queries: Anna, you ARE going to let us Michigan gurdyists know when you are coming to Michigan, aren't you? We will all be gathered at Evart for the music festival the second week, and you could be our leader! Or, we will be delighted to Mr. and Mrs. Peekstock's front lawn at any date of your choosing... Judith = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:01:12 -0500 From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org> Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start Although there are technical issues involved, it isn't that hard, and many of us learned on our own. While I am not the best tekerõ player around (far from it in fact) I have taught myself to play reasonably well and enjoy it. If you let yourself worry about technical perfection and problems too much then you won't enjoy it. I'm not saying those things aren't important, but worrying about them all up front is like learning to play oboe and wanting to know how to circular breathe on your first piece. What I find is that in practice the technical difficulties tend to come up as you progress, so you may read this list now and go "what?" to some of the posts, but after a year they will make sense and what was once bewildering will be easy. Then there will be other bewildering things that after another year will make sense, and so on. But you have fun along the way. If you have played piano I would say that, if you can get your instrument set up right by someone who knows what they are doing, you should be confidently playing simple tunes (no chien or embellishments) within a few hours, and then it gets fun. Don't worry if you aren't perfect when you start! -Arle = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:44:55 -0800 From: Anna Peekstok <apeekstok _at_ attbi.com> Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start On 2/28/02 11:01 AM, arle lommel wrote: > If you have played piano I would say that, if you can get your > instrument set up right by someone who knows what they are doing, you > should be confidently playing simple tunes (no chien or > embellishments) within a few hours Actually, in some really obnoxious cases, the chien comes just as easily and quickly as the melody does. But I think such people should have the decency *pretend* to struggle, just so the rest of us don't feel bad! Anna + + + + + + + + + + + Anna Peekstok http://www.telynor.com + + + + + + + + + + + = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:52:22 EST From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start? Hi Nathan, I'm in the process of getting my hurdy gurdy built and should have it in my hands within two months. Your letter sounds like something I'll be writing after getting mine. Hope we can both progress and become players. Jake Conte __ Castle Keep on mp3: www.mp3.com/castlekeep English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh folk songs in a progressive style. Callithumpian Band on mp3: www.mp3.com/callithumpianband Rock band playing English, Irish, Scottish, Breton, Galician and Asturian Music UNDER CONSTRUCTION |
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