Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List - March 2002

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Our deepest thanks to Maxou Heintzen for this fabulous photograph, taken at Saint-Cloud near Paris in 1957 by an unknown photographer.

The following are the archives of the Hurdy-gurdy Mailing List, sponsored by Alden and Cali Hackmann of Olympic Musical Instruments.

 

 
 



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Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 03:10:22 -1000
From: Don Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start

Today I received my lute-back gurdy from Helmut Gotschy. It's been a 
long wait, (three years)  but totally worth it. I cried with joy when I 
finally held this beautiful piece of art. And the music poured out of 
her and me together, as though I'd waited lifetimes for this moment. 
Once tuned, she sang with her own soul, and the songs buried within my 
own soul for centuries came flowing out, my fingers dancing over the 
keys, my right hand turning the crank and effortlessly coaxing forth the 
rhythmic pulse of wheel and chien.

Dances in three and six,, two-steps and bourees, musettes and wild 7/8 
gypsy melodies, droning fantasias with heavy vibrato in the left hand- 
all this music I've never heard in this lifetime, wafting back like 
smoke from a minstrel's road-side campfire. I'm just rapt with listening 
to this magic sound that's vibrating me deeper than my own bones, 
casting the opening spell that reawakens the long-forgotten but deeply 
longed-for spirit of my own true nature.

This is why I was born, to make this sound again.

Being on Maui it's good to have this "extended family" of hurdy gurdy 
enthusiasts, and such a wealth of wisdom and shared experience. 
Hopefully I'll entice some of you over here one day to make music 
together. Meanwhile thanks for the community.

Aloha-

Don


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Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:48:59 -0400
From: Alison Gowan <acgowan _at_ freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?

>  Hi Nathan,  I'm in the process of getting my hurdy gurdy built and
>should have it in my hands within two months.  Your letter sounds like
>something I'll be writing after getting mine.  Hope we can both progress
>and become players.

I will second, third or fourth that. I just spoke to my friend who is
waiting for her two new gurdies to be made by Chris Eaton. Can you imagine?
Two at once! I will be buying her trusty old friend when they are complete.
Hopefully this summer.
My question is regarding transport. Seeing as I am in Eastern Canada and
she is in Eastern England, I have a couple options I can think of. Nigel
Eaton was telling her about a safe and inexpensive way to transport it in a
crate via boat. I am a little queesy about that as I had a computer
hard-drive killed on that same route. Maybe some of you have some
re-assurance about that method. The other possibilty is a trip to pick it
up. Definately a lot more fun, and practical in that it would include some
lessons from her (a wonderful experienced player) on all those finer points
that were brought up by Nathan. I guess the problem (besides additional
expense) would be flying home with it. I have read some of the tips for
travel that Pierre Imbert had recommended on the web-site. Maybe those of
you who have travelled recently have some extra advice. I would love to
hear your thoughts. (The hurdy comes with a hard-shell case)
Thanks Also hoping to be playing soon.
Alison




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Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 05:07:28 -1000
From: Don Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?

Mine was just shipped to me via DHL from Germany. It was supposed to 
take two days, but customs held it in New York for a week and it took 
ten. The morons seemed to think it was some dangerous baroque weapon...

After emailing them pictures of the instrument under construction, they 
released it...

As a professional violinist I can tell you that flying with any 
instrument has always been difficult, but since 9/11 it has become 
nearly disastrous. As long as you can get the instrument onto the plane 
with you and into the overhead bin without anyone swinging their 150 lb. 
box of pineapples on top of it... you're home safe...

Best of luck-

Don

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Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:36:02 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?

Another hint on carrying instruments by air. Most security guards at 
the metal detectors are going to tell you "we've been ordered by the 
FAA not to let anyone bring packages that don't fit in the size guide 
past security". The response that should get you through is, "I'm 
going to check this at the gate because it's very fragile". It is 
highly likely that no one at the gate will say a word and you'll be 
able to walk on with the case, although having an unusual case may 
make it more likely that they are going to check you out thoroughly.

Flying from Alaska recently I had my bags thoroughly searched and 
sloppily repacked twice by security people (I was carrying an er-hu, 
a Chinese two-string fiddle with me), once at the metal detector and 
then again at the gate. I was a little ticked off at that point, 
especially as I was trying to take care of my 2-year old daughter who 
understood nothing about what was going on. The airlines really need 
to get their act together and get some way of making sure that they 
don't double efforts on some people (once through is really enough) 
since that is a waste of everyone's time.

So expect the security people to look at anything strange as a 
potential threat (I guess they have to!) and to be very moronic about 
anything they haven't seen before. If you get smart ones then you're 
lucky. (In case no one heard, Congress was going to make it a 
requirement that screeners have a high-school diploma until they 
found out that would have disqualified over a fourth of screeners 
then working. So much for a highly-trained security force. But let 
that warn you about the troubles you may run into.)

-Arle


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Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:13:47 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] air travel

I recently had a good experience travelling by air with a hurdy gurdy
simply wrapped in bubble wrap held in place with rubber bands.
I don't have a hard case, and even if I did I would not feel secure enough
to see my instrument disappear into the netherworld ofBaggage-handlerland
in one.
 I have always put my instrument in the overhead bins in a soft case, this
however breeds its own brand of anxiety, the danger coming from fellow
passangers who will try and squeeze their 'all you can legally carry' cases
against or on top of your instrument. This is where the bubble wrap comes
in, it allows even the most undiscriminating passanger,( customs or
security officer for that matter) to see right away that they are not
dealing with a bag of dirty laundry. For good measure I place a bulky coat
or sweater behind it so that the instrument is right at the front and
nobody will be tempted to squeeze in something in front of it. This will
also give the instrument extra padding and less room to slide about. As a
final touch you can decorate your parcel with a few FRAGILE  stickers,
which you can get at the check-in desk. You can also remove the handle and
all pegs, which will make the instrument more streamlined and therefore
less vulnerable.
If you are thinking of picking up your instrument in person, I would
suggest you  fill your hard case with dirty laundry and take your baby with
you as carry on.
Juan




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Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:46:34 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Air travel

Where can I find a case like this, is it custom made? Do they have a web
site?

Theo


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Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:59:07 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] air travel

This can be somewhat mitigated by sitting as far back in the airplane 
as possible. When I was flying to Alaska I was in row six on the 
airplane, which is the first row in coach on that particular plane, 
and they had us board with first class. When I asked why the flight 
attendant said it is because if they don't do that people fill up the 
front bins before the people sitting in that row can put anything in 
them and there is no under-seat storage there. Sure enough person 
after person got in and filled up any space available in the front 
bins and then headed for the back.

The flight attendant also told us never to do that because theft from 
those front bins is very high since thieves know that many of the 
bags belong to people sitting in the back of the plane who won't be 
able to see them or stop them, plus people tend to pack their 
valuables in their carry-ons. She said all the time they see bags 
being stolen and can do nothing about it since they can move no more 
than anyone else while the plane is emptying and then the bag's owner 
comes up and acts as if it's the airline's fault that he stuck his 
bag on the wrong end of the plane and got it stolen.

All in all what this means is that if you are going to carry on 
anything like an HG head for the back of the plane since you won't 
have to compete for space so much and fewer people will go by who 
could cause problems by dropping their box of lead soldiers on your 
instrument's bridge.

-Arle


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Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 11:26:58 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Air travel


 I think that the age of keeping a HG in the cokpit is over
, if you
ever face  really smart security people ( is it possible ?
) they would
know
that a HG axle coug be made with a pointed end and fit in a
cone shaped
bearing .

  Simply get a GOOD case and pay for the over weight .

What is a good case ?  , Jump on it with both feet , drop
it from the
second floor on the side walk .  This is a good case for
air travel

  It will be cube shaped , with metal edges . ( probably
black <g>)

Henry

Bonus :
It will serve as bench or table next time you go at St
Chartier

 here , 18th picture from top

http://www.chez.com/vielleux/stchartier99/pix99.htm






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Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:29:09 -0800
From: R. T. Taylor <shangrilart _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Fw: wanted hurdy-gurdy

Anyone out there want to rent or sell a HG to this person?
r.t.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "damian" <damian _at_ voxpop.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.music.early
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 2:56 AM
Subject: wanted hurdy-gurdy


> Can anyone help me by renting or possibly selling an unwanted Hurdy
> Gurdy or Drehleier? Cheeky I know but I'm desperate to get playing and
> I'm struggling to free up the necessary money to buy a new quality
> instrument. You can check out my credentials at voxpopmusic.co.uk, it
> wouldn't be wasted! Many thanks Damian
> 



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Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:02:45 -0500
From: Eugene <eugenebienvenue _at_ softhome.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?

Hi,

I know I've been a non-participatory "lurker" for these many months on the
list.
So I guess I should introduce myself first.
My name is Eugene, and I was, and will soon be again,. a
street-performer\renaissance musician, playing hurdy-gurdy, lute, and
various renaissance wind instruments.
I travelled extensively throughout Europe for about 10 years, with my now
ex-wife (recorders\renaisssance wind), getting gigs when we could, and
playing  small renaissance and medieval tourist towns when we couldn't.

I built my own HurdyGurdy from the EarlyMusicShop kit, (on a beach, in
Greece), and having never heard one performed, proceeded to hack my way
through our repertoire. Needless to say, the HG was a hit with client and
tourist alike, and it (if not I), after countless adjustments, ended up
playing marvelously well  .

It was only that summer that I saw my first Gurdy player. The hurdyGurdy
still has a relatively strong tradition in certain parts of France, and it
was in Brittany that I had my sirst experience of how this wonderful
invention was meant to be
played.

And this is my point: it was in seeing an experienced player, first-hand,
that I learned the most about HG technique. At first, my mind, and body
rebelled at the possibility of reproducing what he was capable of. But until
I had seen it first-hand, I had no idea that such things were possible.

It is of course impractical to suggest going to Celtic France  to see the
players there. But if you take every opportunity you can to catch any HG
performance, you may well benefit as i did. And with that initial
breakthrough, pieces heard on CD etc started to make more sense and also
became a great learning tool.

Hope this helps, and have fun....leave the mental musings the guitarists and
lutenists :)

Eugene


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Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 13:06:26 -0800
From: Patricia Lipscomb <hurdygurdygirl _at_ molehaven.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] air travel

I've been following with interest the messages about traveling with a 
hg. Last month I traveled by air with a Minstrel borrowed from a friend 
(I guess the capitalization helps to clarify that I my friend did not 
lend me a troubadour to keep me company on my trip). Anyway the 
instrument seemed to trigger a lot of increased scrutiny. I am a short 
harmless-looking grandmother, but not only did the instrument get 
checked over very thoroughly, I also got frisked pretty thoroughly and 
had to take off my shoes for examination. The security people didn't 
seem to quite believe that the hg was a musical instrument. I was afraid 
they might ask me to prove it was an instrument by playing it; if I were 
not able to play better than I do most of the time, they might have been 
more convinced than before that I was dangerous. 

Trish


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Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 14:33:29 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Air travel

 It is made locally , I guess it must be available in most cities, they
make cases for électric pianos and électronic equipment .
Just ask at the shop that sells électric guitars . They also run adds in
musician
union's newspaper .  Also offer discounts to professional musicians .
The friend who lended me the case  travels with a HG and and électric piano
the other member of the duo caries a guitar a mandocello and two violins.
No way it can all fit in the overhead bin.<g>

Theo Bick a écrit :

> Where can I find a case like this, is it custom made? Do they have a web
> site?
>
> Theo


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Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:35:12 -0800
From: Sheila Donoghue <sheilaann _at_ msn.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] air travel

Trish:

I think even being able to coax any sort of sound from the "instrument"
would have caused security to pass you through quite easily.  I know that,
around my house, my amateur playing ability causes the family to hurry me
out the door to my hg events <g>

Sheila




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Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 02:19:56 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?

In a message dated 3/1/02 10:39:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
arle _at_ lisa.org writes:


      Congress was going to make it a
      requirement that screeners have a high-school diploma until
      they
      found out that would have disqualified over a fourth of
      screeners
      then working. So much for a highly-trained security force.




Arle, there IS a difference between "highly-trained" and
"highly-educated."  An airport screener doesn't have to be a rocket
scientist to check luggage.   Not attempting to defend airport security
people as I've had my "disagreements with them also.

Jake Conte


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Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:38:12 -0000
From: Ruth Bramley <ruthbramley _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?

I know that I would not have progressed anywhere near as fast had it not
been for the constant help and support from my teacher (and friend) Mike
Gilpin. If you can possibly manage to find a teacher, the skill of playing
the HG will come that much easier.

Having played guitar and banjo for many years, and more recently bodhran,
the Hurdy Gurdy presented me with a completely new set of skills to learn.
Apart from a year playing piano as a child, and later a short spell of
classical guitar, I hadn't played a melody instrument. (I've used the other
instruments as accompaniment to singing, and in a ceilidh band, more as
rhythm than tune). Getting my fingers to work at the right speed was the
first hurdle...and still on-going but getting better. The bodhran playing
has certainly helped with the trompette technique. One of the most helpful
things, apart from regular lessons, has been getting together once a month
at the local French dance group and playing with other musicians. At first,
I could only join in the trompetting, (and then only when in the right key
as I have a GC, but I have since learned to retune the trompette to D, which
opens up lots more possibilities), but now can quite confidently 'lead' a
tune or join in with a lot of the tunes that are played. The most important
thing when playing for dance is keeping a steady rhythm, so this is very
good discipline.

Basic maintenance of the instrument can also be frightening at first. My
Gurdy, (a Gotschy Phoenix...hello Helmut), is pretty stable and reliable,
although not fond of high humidity, and requires very little attention other
than the usual rosin/cotton wool thing. Again, playing with other HG
players, and drawing from their experiences is invaluable.

I am currently in the process of organising a Hurdy Gurdy weekend here in
sunny Cambridgeshire, (UK), on the weekend of Sept 7th/8th. Mike will be
running a beginners' workshop on GC instruments, and Chris Allen on DGs. We
will also have bagpipe workshops, and possibly guitar as well.
Details/cost/etc are still to be finalised, but if anyone is interested,
please feel free to contact me off-list. The workshops will run all day on
both days, and will take place in the excellent village centre at Haddenham,
near Ely. (I have previously run 2 similar events in this venue with Cliff
Stapleton and Mike York providing the tuition).

Keeping on playing!

Ruth



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Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 04:27:54 -1000
From: Don Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: [HG] looking for a teacher

Well it's official. I'm on Maui, with a beautiful new hurdy gurdy, and 
no teacher (or anyone else who plays at all) within two thousand miles. 
If someone on the west coast who's a qualified teacher wants a trip to 
Maui, I'll pay the air fare in trade for a week of lessons. I have 40 
years experience on the violin, and seem to be doing quite well on my 
own, but I'd really like to hang out with someone who has mastered the 
art...

Let me know if you're interested-

Aloha-

Don

donvlax _at_ maui.net



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Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 15:44:47 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] looking for a teacher

Isn't Maui that island with the dyslexic cats?

The next selection from the  AMTA series (No.3 1999)  is on my site -
selected by  Jac Lavergne, there are some really interesting tunes.
Apologies to G/C players but the files were starting to get unwieldy - it's
not so hard to transpose the ones you want.

Neil Brook,
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk


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Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 17:47:13 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: tunes online  was: Re: [HG] looking for a teacher

Hello,


Neil Brooks:
 The next selection from the  AMTA series (No.3 1999)  is on my site -
> selected by  Jac Lavergne, there are some really interesting tunes.
> Apologies to G/C players but the files were starting to get unwieldy - it's
> not so hard to transpose the ones you want.

talking about tunes, may I recomend a visit to my personal choisse of
music in the net:
Just click on one of the links:

laendler    lieder   mazurka   polka   galopp   dreher   schottisch  
6/8 taenze    steirer   walzer   zwiefach   iodler   schleunige
gruppen-taenze   bourree à deux temps   bourree à trois temps  
bretonische taenze    andere taenze

on my music homepage.  
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/homepage_abc.htm

most parts are acctualized to the new design, including pictures, abc
text and midi of the tunes some parts are still 'abc only'.

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria

http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



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Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 17:30:07 -0800
From: Nathan Roy <imakhy _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?

Dear list,

Thank you for all the replies. I've been somewhat late to answer back 
because of my tendancy to labor over email tuned by instrument and demonstrated 
that it could work 
properly. I didn't really get any good playing lessons, but the basics were 
presented, and I know it has the capacity to function!

>What caused you to be interested in this instrument?

One basic feature of my personality seems to be an attraction to things no 
one else cares about, like ancient languages and scripts. The HG was 
interesting because it's an almost unknown instrument, but can still play 
traditional Western music (unlike the sitar or didjeridu). I also like the 
droning sound, and I'm learning French. In two years perhaps I'll take a 
semester abroad where you really can get formal lessons.

>What musical experiences do you have so far?

I played the cello for eight years, and have reamained about at the level of 
a first-year. This is probably due to the fact that I never liked to 
practise. In a school where the largest graduating class in years was ten, 
there weren't many programs to choose from!

>Are you getting family support?

My father worked for weeks building parts and helping me construct it, so 
I'd say so! The first time I played it for the whole family, they all said 
it sounded better than what I'd been threatening.

>I realize that funny jokes abound about pets and people running for >their 
>lives.

My only pet is a gecko that isn't even at college with me yet. Even if it 
were here, the thing's much too emotionally latent to provoke my sympathy. 
You can even look into its ear holes and see light on the other side!

>Do you offer any photos such as a personal web page about your >instrument?

I think I emailed some really low quality photos to Alden. Basically, it 
just looks like a Musicmaker's with some added Volksgurdy parts. Now that I 
think about it, I really don't have that much reason to complain. The 
biggest problem is forcing myself to remember I'm not supposed to be perfect 
yet. Even the trompette is already functioning fairly easily, and I can 
produce a blurry coup de 2.

Anyway... thanks again for the responses. I will certainly try to get to the 
festival this year, even though it's during school. My main problems are 
simply a reluctance to practise because I don't want to display any 
incopetance, but of course that'll cause me to remain that way! Okay... 
Here's one last direct question before I get back to work: Since I don't 
have any experience with keyboard instruments, am I supposed to memorize 
which key a particular written note represents directly, or simply relative 
to other keys? With the cello, it was very easy to read music, but now I 
feel like it's all being done by ear. Perhaps this will force me to be more 
of a musician instead of a mere technician...

Well, talk to you all later. Sincerely,

Nathan Roy


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Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 11:04:09 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] How do I start?

Nathan Roy:
> Here's one last direct question before I get back to work: Since I don't
> have any experience with keyboard instruments, am I supposed to memorize
> which key a particular written note represents directly, or simply relative
> to other keys? With the cello, it was very easy to read music, but now I
> feel like it's all being done by ear. Perhaps this will force me to be more
> of a musician instead of a mere technician...

(nearly) all the baroque music is in G/C what means that it is possible
to read this music directly as the hurdy gurdy keyboard has - in a G/C
tuning - the same key/pitch relation than the piano keyboard and the
notation system  

In gerneral the traditional dance music stuff must be learned by heart
for playing it and is often played in other keys than written too
(sometimes played in different keys with different instrumental
partners). For this and for a better musical understanding it is very
usefull to learn to read music relatively to its root: Identify the
scale and attach the functions within this scale to the staff lines
using numbers: third fourth etc (this also includes to know the function
of the key/note in the two to four keys usually played on a hurdy gurdy:
C is root of C, fourth of G, fifth of G and minor seventh of D).
This also allows to transpose music written in (all) other keys easier.
look up the lowest note in the melody:for example if it is fifth, sixth
or seventh of the scale play it in the key/scale that starts at the
third key of the keyboard ( in C on a G/C, in G on a D/G) etc.

regards

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria

--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



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Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 10:44:27 -0400
From: Alison Gowan <acgowan _at_ freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] air travel

Thanks so much for all your prompt and helpful responses to my query.

I am starting to favour the shipping approach. I have to get over the
irrational fear that the beauty will be safer in my hot little hands, but I
think a lot of that is just the anticipation of a wait for shipping after
all the waiting thus far.

Maybe I should save my air fare for the cheaper trip to Seattle for the
festival.

Cheers, Alison


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Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 18:21:54 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: [HG] French traditional  repertoire

Hello,

The better I learn to know this central French repertoire the more I get
the impression that most of those wonderfull tunes were written in the
last thirty years. I ask myself if the old traditional repertoire was of
the same 'quality' and if it also used this variety of scales dorian,
mixolydian, minor, or if it was dominated by simple major tunes as for
example here in Austria. Is there any scientific research done on this
or better readable summarys of this scientific matters ? 


Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria

--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



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Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 12:29:11 EST
From: Maxoubbn _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] French traditional  repertoire

Hello Simon,

I'm afraid there's no book or paper about that. There were plenty tunes
usings modes, specially songs. The "Folklore" had choosen almost only
major tunes for the dances. Around 1970, the work of Frederic and others
was to rediscover old modal tunes. But the most important part of modal
dancing tunes were lost. So we took songs which were in the bourrée style
to play them as dances. For example Achille MILLIEN collected thousand of
songs around 1880-1900, but only a few dances tunes, because he was
interested mainly by popular litterature (songs, tales...).
And we wrote some tunes in the song's modes...
Maxou


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Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:06:42 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] looking for a teacher


Hello Don,

Oh what the heck, I suppose I could tear myself away for a week. I am a
qualified teacher. Is next week OK?

Regards,

Theo Bick



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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:27:13 +0100
From: Petra Kuehmichel <Petra.Kuehmichel _at_ t-online.de>
Subject: [HG] what are the prizes for HG- lessons


Hello list,
 
I am a HG (and recorder/flute) teacher in Germany and I am always
astonished because HG lessons are mostly much cheaper than lessons for
other instruments like piano, guitar, violin,....flute.....
So I`d like to know your experiences.
What are the prizes for HG teachers and what is their qualifikation
(studies of music or how long do they play their instrument, do they play
other instruments?...)
I suppose it`s better to contact me off the list in this case, if you
like.
 
thanks
and
have a nice time
Petra



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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 08:54:32 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Joan

Hi Theo.


For what its worth, Pat carries a very nice hammer dulcimer, HUGE,  many
places.  I call it the Baby Grand of Hammer Dulcimers.  ;-) The case she had
built for it is made of plywood.  The interior is lined with high quality,
high impact resistant, foam that is cut to deminsion to allow the
instrument, inside it's case,  to sit down in the foam.  More foam fits
snugly over the top of the case and is dimensioned to allow for handles and
so forth.   Before placing the instrument in the shiping case, she puts 1/4
inch flat strips of foam under any movable parts.  Most of us would probably
have to cut ourselves a foam insert to go inside our canvas cases and put
strips of foam inside the key box.  Foam shops  sell all sorts of foam and
it shouldn't be hard to find.  I have even seen some very good stuff at Home
Depot.   The top of the shiping container is not hinged.  It is designed to
be attached to  the sides with hex  wood screws that are recessed into the
top and screw down into the sides about an inch.  When the whole thing is
put together it is a VERY TIGHT, secure shipping container that can take
drops, conveyor belts and so forth.    One  change I would make is to put
metal inserts into the sides and substitute hex bolts for the hex screws
that attach  the top to the body.  The hex screws will chew up the wood with
time if the musician is repeatedly removing and putting it on.   It has held
up in rain, snow and heat while sitting uncovered on the runway.  The foam
makes it resistent to dammage and insulates against heat and cold. Of course
it is not as touchy as an HG.  The corners are not reinforced. Personally, I
think those corner tabs just make for one more thing to catch on the
conveyor belt.  Interestingly, she always picks it up in oversized baggage
so it never comes down the conveyor belt.    So far there have been no
problems.  There's a recessed handle for manuvering it onto a truck or in
her case, onto the skate board she uses to haul it around.  The plywood is
heavy and you need something to haul it around.  Her Hammer Dulcimer weighs
45 lbs in its shipping container.   I see no reason why such a case could
not be made for an HG.   Making the shiping crate out of plywood is cost
effectve.  It is strong.  Hers has been shellaced (sp)  to resist water. As
the lid fit  flat to the top, no hinges, and attached with recessed bolts or
screws it is secure against intruders or the curious.  True, it doesn't
lock, but it has screws every few inches and it would be very hard for
someone to undo it without drawing a lot of attention.  She carries an
electric screwdriver in her luggage to take the screws out.   :-)  Last year
she almost had a nervous breakdown when she thought she had left the
electric screwdriver at home.  :-)  The case is also wonderful insulation
and protection in the rental car.  We pile luggage on top of it and are not
particularly careful with it.   It seems  to maintain a constant temperature
in even hottest and coldest places. She has shipped it all over the country
as a piece of baggage and though she worries like an Irish Grandmother
everytime it goes into the hold of the plane there has never been any
damage.  She had her case made by a guy here in Seattle.  His name is Rick
Fogel and he makes Hammer Dulcimers, but it is after all, just a very
sturdy, well foamed box .  It shouldn't be hard for a competent cabinet
maker to turn out.


BTW, we have not talked to the airlines since 911 and don't know what the
proceedure is now.  It would be wise to find out if they want to physically
inspect everything that goes into the hold.  That wouldn't be hard to do
with such a case, but would probably take an extra half hour at the airport
if you have to take it to oversize baggage ahead of time.



Joan



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Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:42:41 -0400
From: Alison Gowan <acgowan _at_ freeuk.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] From Joan

Thanks Joan,
Those are good ideas. In our last move I had a special crate made for my
double bass (basically an over-sized wardrobe) and the fellow stuffed it
with high-density foam while I watched him wrap the bridge and wedge the
instrument in so there was no sway. I felt a little sick but it survived
the long truck ride beautifully, along with our other furniture. I suppose
I could arrange for similar care to be taken with the hurdy-gurdy whether I
send it or fly with it.

Alison.


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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 23:29:17 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] what are the prizes for HG- lessons

Hello Petra,

you can find my personal price list on this site:
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/Unterricht.htm#Der regelmässige
unterricht

you know about my qualifications.

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria


http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



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Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:56:37 -0000
From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie>
Subject: RE: [HG] Flemish music,

Hi Henry,

thanks for the recommendations. Eufoda have recently released an excellent 
CD by Paul Rans and Claude Flagel which features in equal measure Flemish 
and French song (often using the same tune).

Regards

nicholas


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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:04:26 +0000
From: ben grossman <nostyle _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Fwd: Amplification (from Theo Bick)

Hello Theo et al!

I just found you old message in the dusty corners of my computer and I thought
I'd finally answer it!

I too have an Alto from WW which I love dearly.  The outputs of the preamp are
line level which means that they will fairly easlily oveload the inputs of a
guitar amp or guitar pedal-type effect box.  Of course, this might be just the
sound that you're looking for, but chances are that you'd like a cleaner sound
too.  Line level means that the outputs are best plugged into a 'line in'
input on a mixer or into a D.I. box and thence to a mixing board/amplifier.
Do note, though that the outputs from the break-out-box are also balanced on
TRS 1/4" jacks.  This means that you can plug a TRS to TRS cable directly into
a balanced line in or use a regular TS cable which shorts out the 'cold'
signal to the ground and provides a normal, unbalanced line level.  For
example, if you needed to plug into the 'RCA' jacks of a stereo or input of a
small mixer, you could just use a 1/4" to RCA cable - no problem.  If you
wanted to plug into the line in's of a newer Mackie mixer, you could use 1/4"
TRS cables and take advantage of a balanced signal (less hum and rf
interference and longer cable runs).  Or you COULD use TRS to XLR cables to go
to an XLR line in on a bigger mixer so equipped or even to a mic input if you
like the sound of the mic pre on you sound...but NO phantom power!!!!  As far
as I can tell the electronics of the system are NOT buffered to handle 48v
coming in.  I don't think that you'd damage anything, but I for one don't want
to find out!  Sorry for all of the techie talk.  I'd be happy to
clarify/translate if anyone wants...

As to what you do with it then is very much up to you and your
experimentation.


>
> >
> >How do you get more volume without changing the quality of the sound? Can
> >I just plug straight into a PA system?
> >

This might be the trickiest part as sound flows differently through wood and
air as it does through wood, pickups, wires, eq's, amps and speakers!  I think
that Weichselbaumer's instruments have the capability of the most 'natural'
plugged-in sound that I've heard through a combination of good electronics and
pre-amps and a gorgeous, full sounding instrument to begin with.  But what
happens to the sound after it leaves your wires is exremely variable.  In
addition to the things I mention above (some of which you may not have control
of, depending on the situation), each venue has it's own accoustic too, so
even if you're touring with your own amps and speakers (and sound-people, of
course!) each space you play in will sound different.  So some kind of eq
(equalization) is important to be able to compensate for these things.  WW's
new electronic system has an accesable eq section (I think) and many also
chose to have a small mixer (like the Mackie 1202 or similar) by their side
for such adjustments.  But I think that you'll get the most 'natural' and
controlable sound by plugging directly into a mixer/pa system.  For an amp for
youself, you might do better with a 50-100 watt keyboard amp.  I've rented the
Canadian made Yorkville ones for certain situations to good effect, but the
Peavey, Roland etc. ones are basically the same.

>
> >What effects equipment have folks used for moderate altering of the sound?
> >I think I would like a little reverb and perhaps just a bit of distortion.
> >

Again, I get the best results from line-level devices such as are made to go
in a mixer's aux send path.  There's no limit to what you can get or do with
these things and they get cheaper by the day.  You might start with some kind
of muli-effect box.  I have an old DigiTech 'Studio Quad' which sounds OK, but
more importantly is easy to program (and I don't have much patience with these
things).  It also has 4 ins and 4 outs and can be used to put differnt effects
on each of the four channels....rhythmic delay on the melody, octave divider
on the drone, flanger on the sympathetics, and...um...er...auto wah on the
trompette????  Well, something like that.  I find that the more time I spend
with my HG, the less modification of the sound I want to do with electronics
and the more I want to do with my technique!   But reverb can be nice and I
like to use long looping delays for builing up harmonies and slowly evolving,
complex 'drone-scapes' (sounds so pretentious, but I can't think of another
term at the moment!).  I've also been writing looping patches in a program
called Reaktor and playing the HG through my powerbook.  I like to think of it
as old-school laptop meets new-school laptop...




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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:07:16 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>

The list has been kind of quiet these days, so here's a joke every hurdy
gurdy player should bear in mind:

What does a hurdy gurdy and a hurdy gurdy player have in common?









The head is purely for decoration.

Juan (thanks Giles)




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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:42:25 -0800
From: Diana O'Neill <dianamark _at_ foxinternet.com>
Subject: [HG] HG Joke

Thanks, Juan
 
I really needed a good joke!!
 
Diana



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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:11:45 -0500
From: "jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.qwest.net" <jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Subject: [HG] RE: 

Hi Juan and Sharon too.

Thanks for the cute joke.  Missing you guys.  Have you heard from Ila and Cliff?  
I wanted to write Ila.  Do take care and see you in Sept. if not sooner.

Joan D'Andrea


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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 22:38:51 +0200 (EET)
From: Juulia & Esa <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi>
Subject: Re: [HG] HG Joke

Hmm...
Well, but how about us who play a hg without that decorative sculpture
(like hungarian tekerolant)?
There are at least two possibilities:
- our heads are for something else than only "just for decoration"
- our heads are even less: no head in hg - no head at all...

But at least my (own) head is not very decorative.

Esa Mäkinen

..........................................................
Esa Mäkinen & Juulia Salonen
Variskuja /Kråkgränden 1b8
01450 VANTAA / VANDA
FINLAND
tel. +358-9-8235318
ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi

website of our band:
www.ihtiriekko.net
(updates coming soon)





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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 19:26:23 -0500
From: "Smishkewych, Wolodymyr" <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: [HG] zanfonas and liras

Hello friends-
I just wanted to put out feelers around the HG community to see what kind of
interest there would be for a Galician zanfona and Ukrainian lira source
here in the USA. anyone out there interested in knowing more about these two
gurdies, maybe getting one in the future? email me with any questions!

best regards to all,
Wolodymyr Smishkewych


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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:26:47 -0800
From: Diana O'Neill <dianamark _at_ foxinternet.com>
Subject: [HG] Fw: Hurdy Grudy mentioned in a novel


A friend tells me she is reading a book by Jane Hamilton,
Disobedience      which has a brief reference to the hurdy gurdy. She
was impressed because she knows (now) what it is.
Diana -Seattle



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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:56:02 -0500
From: "Smishkewych, Wolodymyr" <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: [HG] more on zanfonas and liras

hello again friends--

someone on the list brought up a good point--to forward links for folks to
see pictures at...i have not yet started building, but here is a link with
some great photos of instruments made by Jesus Reolid, a spanish luthier
that has made some fine instruments.

the main difference between galician zanfonas and other gurdies is that the
intrument is exclusively built and played in what vielle-oriented gurdyists
know as 'en musette', or without the mouche or trompette. the sound of the
chanterelles is enhanced and made richer by adding a third chanterelle tuned
an octave below the two unisons; the open tuning for the two standard
galician zanfonas would be:

DO:

1st & 2nd cantantes (chanterelles):	g
3rd cantante:				G (1 octave below c.1 & 2)
1st bordon (bourdon):			C
2nd bordon:				G' (1 octave below c. 3)

SOL

as above:
c. 1 & 2:				D
3rd c.:					D' (1 8ve lower than c. 1 & 2)
bordon 1:				G'
b 2:					D'' (1 8ve lower than c. 3



the ukrainian liras are very similar to hungarian tekero"lants and russian
liras, ranging the variants in between.

here are pictures to jesus' page:

http://personal5.iddeo.es/ret007ei/reolid/i-zanfona.html
(click on "pagina principal" at the bottom to reach his main page)


hope to hear from folks!

best,

Wolodymyr ("Vlad") Smishkewych




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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:21:19 -0500
From: "jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.qwest.net" <jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Subject: RE: [HG] more on zanfonas and liras

HiVlad and Everyone else as well.

I have been to the Jesus Reolid site before.  He has some very nice pictures 
and anyone interested in pictures of him making instruments should just keep 
forwarding through the pictures.  Once you get beyong the restored guitars 
you will find a nice picture of Jesus playing his HG anbd beyond it is a 
very good collection of pictures of him constructing.

Joan D' 

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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:07:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [HG] 


Hey, Joan D'

How's that Bosch coming along?

Roy T.

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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:58:28 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] more on zanfonas and liras

Hello,

Is it correct to suppose that you mean the following pitches?
Especially the pitches for the 'SOL' tuning seem to be quite low,
possible but a bit unlikely for a traditional instrument. I am very much
interested in the string material used traditionaly if these pitches are
right:

"Smishkewych, Wolodymyr":
> (...) the open tuning for the two standard
> galician zanfonas would be:
> 
> DO:
> 
> 1st & 2nd cantantes (chanterelles):     g 
= g' the 'normal' HG g' (392 Hz) the one above middle c (c') 

> 3rd cantante:                           G (1 octave below c.1 & 2)
= g the violin/viola g (196 Hz) right below the middle c

> 1st bordon (bourdon):                   C
= c the viola c (131 Hz) one octave below middle c

> 2nd bordon:                             G' (1 octave below c. 3)
= G the cello G (98 Hz)
> 
> SOL
> 
> as above:
> c. 1 & 2:                               D
= d' (294 Hz)  the lower D-HG melody and d' of the violin/viola (!?) the
note above middle c

> 3rd c.:                                 D' (1 8ve lower than c. 1 & 2)
=d  the d of the cello (147 Hz) the note above the viola c (!?)

> bordon 1:                               G'
= the G of the cello (98 Hz)

> b 2:                                    D'' (1 8ve lower than c. 3
= the C of the cello (65,5 Hz) (!?) 

regards,

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria

--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/

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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:53:32 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Fwd: Amplification (from Theo Bick)

Hello Ben,

Wow! Thanks for the very informative reply. I will have to experiment around
and will probably have more questions later. I will start by trying a
keyboard amp.

Regards,

Theo




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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 14:37:24 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Mike Gilpin


Hi list - I've come across an enigmatic reference to an 18th century =
maker, Charette, who made alto gurdies. Does anybody know anything about =
him or his instruments? How do they differ from modern alto gurdies - ie =
scale length, tuning, keyboard layout etc. Any ideas?
Another obscure reference in a book on world music suggests that there =
maybe hurdy gurdies lurking in a far corner of Madagascar, left over =
from the 19th century when the island was a French protectorate. I've =
never come across this before, and I don't think the Malagasy music has =
incorporated gurdies into their music. Unless of course you know =
different!


Mike Gilpin


www.hurdygurdy.biz



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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:57:42 -0800
From: Nathan Roy <imakhy _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG]  _at_ #$%cotton!

Dear list,

I've been practising slowly for the past few weeks, and making a bit of 
progress over all. It's definately a positive sign when I can find myself 
caught up in the playing from time to time. Certainly the old drudgery of 
childhood music lessons is no longer present!

Yesterday, I finally got up the courage to try putting cotton on my bourdon, 
so it could be added into the mix. My some miracle, I managed to succeed! 
The instument never sounded so good in my hands as it did that afternoon, 
and, flushed with victory, I began to dweel on the fact that my chanterelle 
were a bit thinly cottoned.

Well... Let's just say I wasn't quite so successful this time. Now the 
instrument sounds absolutely vile! Not only is the melody raspy, way too 
quiet, and prone to jumping octaves, but the bourdon gets these metallic 
shrieks and all the rosin rubs off the wheel immediately. I know exactly 
what's gone wrong: Basically, I was using too much cotton and it would not 
wrap tightly enough around the strings, so I tried coating them with rosin 
and probably ended up smudging the wheel. Then I tried all of this retuning 
to correct things and ruined the two drones.

So these are my questions now: First, can I clean the wheel with a clean 
cotton rag, or does it need special treatment? I'm sure the fact that it 
looses traction quickly has something to do with oil interfering with my 
rosin jobs.

Second, how does one get the  _at_ #$% cotton to wrap tightly! I'm following the 
advice given in D&H: twist string with fingers while turning the wheel 
slowly and evenly, etc. Do I need liquid rosin to really get a good grip on 
the strings? That's how it was done when I had it tuned originally.

Third, when does one change the cotton? Can you simply wait until it's 
practically worn off of the string? I don't want to have to change the 
trompette job until it's absolutely necessary. It works still now!

I suppose I can continue to practise my keyboard and trompette skills 
despite the hideous tone, so this is not perhaps crucial. It would be better 
for everyone though! I at least know that the instrument is capable of good 
music, so as long as I can get to a another professional some day, there's 
no cause for dispair.

Thank's for any advice. It really is too bad I tried this 'improvement' 
right before spring break. I was planning to demonstrate my progress to the 
family! C'est la vie... Sincerely,

Nathan Roy


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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 23:47:28 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: [HG] coup de ?

Hello Simon, Neil  and others,
 
My first attempts were guided by the Muskett book. I must have
misinterpreted the diagrams on the coup de un, deux, quatre because I
started practicing the "one stroke" by a foreword push with the fleshy
part of the hand next to the thumb joint. Then when I got the coup de
quatre, I did the "two " with a mostly downward push with the middle of
the thumb, the "three" with a pull by the middle and index fingers and
the "Four" with an upward blow of the ring finger. Not having anyone to
compare with for about 13 years I always thought this was the best way
to do it and was satisfied with my trompette technique, getting
proficient at the coup de 2, 4, 4 irregular, 4 relache, and 6. Then when
I met up with some of the excellent players, it seemed as though my
whole technique was "off " by about 90 degrees. I am 90 degrees early
compared with Gilles, Matthias and from watching a video of him last
week, Stephan Durand. And Matthias told me that in his opinion it is
better to do the "one" with a downward push because the motion is more
efficient. He told me this after watching me play for about 15 seconds.
 
So last week I decided to change my technique by about 90 degrees. If you
go to http://www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk/ and click on Trompette Workshop you
can see the way I am trying to do it now. At first it was very difficult
to change but I vowed not to play another tune until I could at least do
the coup de 4 with the new method. It took about 10 hours over 3 days. I
noticed there was something a bit snappier and sharper about the buzzes 1
& 3. It really did have something that was lacking before. Playing tunes
this way was another matter. I keep falling back to my old habits in
anything but the most simple tunes.
 
My question is this. Are there any excellent players who play it "off by
90 degrees"? Has anyone else changed their technique like this and how
long did it take to be equally proficient at the new? (I did it the old
way for 19 years). Do you have any practice tips? I know that Valentin
Clastrier says that you should be able to start the coups equally well
from any position. Who can do this while playing tunes?
 
I hope this is going to be worth doing and not cause more problems than
it fixes. I am supposed to play twice next month and will probably have
to use the old way.
 
Thanks for reading all this,
 
Theo



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:22:25 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG]  _at_ #$%cotton!

Hello,

Nathan Roy:
> (...)
> on the fact that my chanterelle were a bit thinly cottoned.

the cotton on the chanters *must* be 'thinly'. reasons to remove it are
that its is uneven or knobby or worn out so that the blank string
touches the wheel or that the cotton accumulated to much rosin or dirt. 
> 
> Well... Let's just say I wasn't quite so successful this time. Now the
> instrument sounds absolutely vile! Not only is the melody raspy, way too
> quiet, and prone to jumping octaves, but the bourdon gets these metallic
> shrieks and all the rosin rubs off the wheel immediately. I know exactly
> what's gone wrong: Basically, I was using too much cotton and it would not
> wrap tightly enough around the strings, so I tried coating them with rosin
> and probably ended up smudging the wheel. Then I tried all of this retuning
> to correct things and ruined the two drones.
> 
> So these are my questions now: First, can I clean the wheel with a clean
> cotton rag, or does it need special treatment? 

Yes, that is the usuall treatment: turn the wheel fast, and press the
cotton thight so that the rosin is warmed and melts of the wheel. 

> I'm sure the fact that it
> looses traction quickly has something to do with oil interfering with my
> rosin jobs.

Maybe, but you can cause the problems described above simply by putting
cotton on and off. The cotton consumes the rosin, too much cotton
increases the pressure on the wheel, makes the tone instable too, also
lose cotton affects the traction between the wheel and the string.

> 
> Second, how does one get the  _at_ #$% cotton to wrap tightly! I'm following the
> advice given in D&H: twist string with fingers while turning the wheel
> slowly and evenly, etc. 

Use lesser cotton. It is also a thing you have to train: just go on
putting cotton on the strings for the next two days (do not forget to
put on rosin too).

> Do I need liquid rosin to really get a good grip on
> the strings? That's how it was done when I had it tuned originally.

Rosin on the string is a help but not neccessary (metal surface strings
are a special case). One thing that is much more important is the
quality of the cotton. It must have no knobbs, have a good 'grip' so if
you touch it it should not feel slippery, must have equally thin about
two centimeters long fibres. If you twist it between your fingers it
should easily twine. I personally use the fibres from  natural cotton
capsules (the one from the bush) I buy in the flowers shop.

> Third, when does one change the cotton? Can you simply wait until it's
> practically worn off of the string? I don't want to have to change the
> trompette job until it's absolutely necessary. It works still now!

never change a winning team. You change te cotton when it does not sound
well any more. The most important reason is because the intonation of
the chanters is declining.

> I suppose I can continue to practise my keyboard and trompette skills
> despite the hideous tone 

So, since the target is making music, this seems not to be a positive
option to me. 
See the work on the cotton, rosin and pressure of the string as part of
the musical learning process important to the hurdy gurdy player as the
bowing technique for the violinist.

> C'est la vie... 

celery, as the vegetarians use to say ;-)

regards

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria

--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:41:39 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?

Hi Theo
 
I was at a workshop with Stephan Durand and while he normally uses the
coup system described on my site, he occasionally starts the bar using
the forward push - much in the way of the coup de 4 irregular on the
site. The effect is different to the normal and tends to be used for a
more syncopated style .
 
A useful exercise is to play a 6/8 piece using a coup de 4 system. This
puts the accent on each position progressively - eventually!
 
Neil
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk




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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:06:44 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?

Hello Theo,

Theo Bick:
>
> My question is this. Are there any excellent players 
> who play it "off by 90 degrees"?
> Has anyone else changed their technique like this and 
> how long did it take to be equally proficient at the new? 

I have students who changed/are changing their technique. It needs quite
a while, but it is really neccessary.

> Do you have any practice tips? 

Learn the c.3 .
like in 
rhythm: 
12 34 12 34 12 34
positions:
pos1(12) pos3(34) pos2(12) pos1(34) pos3(12) etc 

since most people do not use the c.3 at all or at least nothing complex,
you can work on pos1 (down) here without having to redo old trained
reflexes. Having established pos.1 (down) in the c.3 helps with the c.4.

And c.3 helps to define the pos3 and pos4 of the c.4 more precise as
being in direct neighbourhood with c3 pos3 (one and two twelfth of the
circle) but not the same.


practise things like 
rhythm: 
'12 12 12 123' 
positions: 
|: c.3: pos1(12) pos3(12) pos2(12) pos1(123) :||: c.4: pos1(12) pos3(12)
pos1(12) pos3(123) pos2 pos4 pos2 pos4 pos3 pos1 pos3 pos1 pos4 pos2
pos4 pos2 :| 
(play c.3 and c.4 parts in one, with a steady rhytm and changing wheel
speed)

> I know that Valentin Clastrier says that you should be 
> able to start the coups equally well from any position. 

this is a regular excuse of learning players not to undergo the hard
work of a precise c.4 ;-)

> Who can do this while playing tunes?

I think most expirienced players.


regards,

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria


--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:31:36 +0000
From: ben grossman <nostyle _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?

Hello Simon and all HG friends,

While we're on the subject of coups, here's a question for you all:

I have been using the method of thinking of the subdivisions of the wheel as
divisions of a circle with the one more-or-less at the top of the wheel: similar
to the method in Dubois (and, I'm sure, others).  I recently got a copy of the
Loibner/Delfino method which illustrates a square-in-the-circle method (for c.4)
with one as the first down side of the square.  This is very similar in some
ways to the 'circle' method of visualizing the action, but allows for more
subtle variations of the figure for stacatto, legato and dynamics.  And I DO
find it all a bit of a visualization/mind game since aiming to hit different
part of my palm as I turn seems to coarse a motion.  Of course, this is what
actually happens when you do it, but I find it easier to imagine the triangle,
square or whatever.  My confusion with this method comes as I'm now trying to
work on c.6 and can't seem to settle on the 'six-parts-of-a-circle' method or
the 'hexagon-over-the-circle' method.  The 'hexagon' version also puts one on
the 'down front' part of the circle, or about 2 o'clock.  This seems to fight
with the part of my brain that aims to put one at just past 12 o'clock for c.3
and c.4.  When I work on c.6, sometimes one method seems to help me, sometimes
the other.  Has anyone else wrestled with these knotty problems?

And, following Catherine Keenan's advice, I'm practicing all of the coups VERY
slowly to a metronome which has cleaned up my c.3 and c.4 and given me hope for
c.6 and c.8, but I can't yet play c.6 at a usefull tempo, though I can now play
the 2nd half of it as a triplet in c.4 or c.3.  My question is:  is this method
of learning c.6 transferrable to 'usefull' tempo?  I somehow suspect that I'm
training different muscles to play c.6 at 60 bpm per 3 beats as I
would to play it at say 80 bpm per 6 beats.  Maybe if I could understand the
German text of this great book???

Left hand/right hand independence is another matter....and to think that also
play percussion?!?!?!?




All the best,


ben



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:39:59 -0000
From: peter.j.hughes _at_ bt.com
Subject: RE: [HG] coup de ?


Hi Theo, and everybody.

19 years is a lot of un-learning!!!

I did it that way for a year or 2 until I learned the error of my ways at a
workshop with Nigel Eaton.  I don't recall re-learning was too much of a
problem, but I do recall coming to the conclusion my playing was terrible
anyway!  The major factor in getting it more-or-less right sometime later
was a single 2 hour private lesson with Cliff Stapleton, which I suppose
shown that there's nothing better than a good teacher. 


How do you people play a coup de troi for 6:8 rhythms?   I know the
'standard' way is with the 1st coup at the top, and the others at approx 60
degree intervals, but doing it that way I find myself drifting into a coup
de quatre. On the other hand, following Nigel's advice I tried doing it the
other way up in a sort of upside down irregular coup de trois,  and found a
useful 'galloping' type jig rhythm much easier. This is how I usually play
for dances, but I've not seen many other people doing it this way.

Best regards to you all

Peter 


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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:42:30 -0500
From: "Smishkewych, Wolodymyr" <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: RE: [HG] more on zanfonas and liras

Thanks, Simon for the note!

the c. 1, 2 and 3 refer to 'cantantes/chanterelles' 1, 2, 3; this may have
been confusing. the 1st & 2nd melody strings of the G zanfona are same 8ve
as the french, the 3rd melody 1 octave below, 1st drone the G a 4th above
this and 2nd drone unison with 3rd melody. sorry-i got the 8ves screwed up!

thanks again-and cheers!

Vlad

-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Wascher [mailto:Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at]
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [HG] more on zanfonas and liras


Hello,

Is it correct to suppose that you mean the following pitches?
Especially the pitches for the 'SOL' tuning seem to be quite low,
possible but a bit unlikely for a traditional instrument. I am very much
interested in the string material used traditionaly if these pitches are
right:

"Smishkewych, Wolodymyr":
> (...) the open tuning for the two standard
> galician zanfonas would be:
> 
> DO:
> 
> 1st & 2nd cantantes (chanterelles):     g 
= g' the 'normal' HG g' (392 Hz) the one above middle c (c') 

> 3rd cantante:                           G (1 octave below c.1 & 2)
= g the violin/viola g (196 Hz) right below the middle c

> 1st bordon (bourdon):                   C
= c the viola c (131 Hz) one octave below middle c

> 2nd bordon:                             G' (1 octave below c. 3)
= G the cello G (98 Hz)
> 
> SOL
> 
> as above:
> c. 1 & 2:                               D
= d' (294 Hz)  the lower D-HG melody and d' of the violin/viola (!?) the
note above middle c

> 3rd c.:                                 D' (1 8ve lower than c. 1 & 2)
=d  the d of the cello (147 Hz) the note above the viola c (!?)

> bordon 1:                               G'
= the G of the cello (98 Hz)

> b 2:                                    D'' (1 8ve lower than c. 3
= the C of the cello (65,5 Hz) (!?) 

regards,

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria

--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/


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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:43:27 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?

Es schrieb peter.j.hughes _at_ bt.com:
> 
> Hi Theo, and everybody.
> (...)
> How do you people play a coup de troi for 6:8 rhythms?   I know the
> 'standard' way is with the 1st coup at the top, and the others at approx 60
> degree intervals, but doing it that way I find myself drifting into a coup
> de quatre.

I use and teach two methods for 6/8: 2 x coup de trois (c.3 ; with a
120° angle) or 1&1/2 coup de quatre (c.4 ; 90° angle). The exercise I
described before uses both.
positions in c3:
 pos1 down at apr. 1 o'clock  pos2 at apr. 5 o'clock and pos3 at 9
o'clock (pos4 c4 is at 10 o'clock compared)

The point is to learn to separate pos4 of c4 and pos3 of c3. They are
quite close together separated by just 1/12 of the circle. to avoid
drifting from one into the other both must be mastered and the
difference must be felt and automatized.

a typical exercise for 6/8 rhythm is:
(123 456 ; at steady tempo, changing wheel speed between c3 and c4, the
use of a metronome is recomended)
[c3] pos1(1) pos2(2) pos3(3) pos1(4) pos2(5) pos3(6) :||:[c4] pos1(123)
pos4(456) pos3(123) pos2(456) || 

in this version the single coups in the c4 are suppressed just the beats
1 and 4 are sounding, later on all positions should be played but with
less emphasis than beats 1 and 4. 

a very good exercise is to play 5/8 7/8 9/8 11/8 rhythms in both c3 and
c4. But starting with 2/4 3/4 and 6/8 is enough scrouge for a start :o).

Best regards

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria


--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:23:58 -0000
From: peter.j.hughes _at_ bt.com
Subject: RE: [HG] coup de ?


I wrote, and then wished I hadn't:
 
> How do you people play a coup de troi for 6:8 rhythms?   I know the
> 'standard' way is with the 1st coup at the top, and the 
> others at approx 60 degree intervals, 
<snip>

What I really meant was 120 degree intervals. Sorry about that.

Peter 


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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:43:21 -0800
From: Katie Roe <Katie.Roe _at_ wizards.com>
Subject: RE: [HG]  _at_ #$%cotton!


    Nathan, here is a document I wrote on cottoning. Maybe it will help
    you. Alden and Cali also added to it, so. . .

Cottoning Instructions

Cotton is very import to the hurdy-gurdy player. Without it, your
instrument will sound very harsh and there could be damage to the wheel
from the strings and damage to the strings from the wheel. There are
many techniques for cottoning a string. It can be a frightening
experience the first few times you change your cotton. We tell you not
to touch the wheel and now we want you to work so close to the wheel that
touching it seems inevitable. It is a wise idea to wash your hands
before playing or changing strings or cotton. Of course, don't put
on hand lotion after washing your hands.


1.     Remove the cotton from the string by putting the string on the
lift to keep it off the wheel and then pick off the cotton gently. Be
careful not to touch your wheel. If your cotton has turned to stone and
won't come off, some players carry pliers for turning tangents. If
you use pliers, be sure to be extra careful so you don't damage
either your string or wheel.

2.     Take your rosin and rub it on the string over where you are going
to place the cotton. This works only for solid, not powdered rosin. 
Doing this makes the string slightly sticky and helps the cotton to
adhere to the string. Alden likes to twist the string around between his
fingers when he does this, so that the rosin ends up on all sides of the
string.

3.     Take a small wad of cotton or silk. Use only a wisp of cotton. 
Remember: less is more, when it comes to cotton. You don't want too
much. I find the amount is slightly larger for the heavier strings. 
Learning the amount will require some practice and patience. Each
instrument has it's limits and you will need to learn your's. Pull the
cotton fibers so that they are going in the same direction, culling any
impurities or lumps out as you go.

4.     Once the cotton is prepared hold it with your first finger and
thumb of your left hand, the cotton hanging down. Bring it to the string
and form a loop with the cotton with the string inside the loop just to
the left of the wheel. Hold the top of the loop with your left hand and
run it down the string until it is above the wheel.

5.     With your right hand lower the string until it is touching the
wheel, the cotton between the wheel and the string.

6.      This is the tricky part.  Very gently and slowly turn the wheel
clockwise and let go of the looped cotton.  You want to let go just a
split second after you start turning.  With your thumb just in front of
the string (not touching the wheel), guide the cotton as it starts to
wrap itself on the string. 

7.      You may need to add rosin once you have changed your cotton.  I
put my rosin on between my chanter and bass strings so that the less
sensitive base string gets the bulk of it, since the other strings need
so much less.

Alden from Olympic Musical Instruments adds:

We've been using fox fiber cotton, which is a naturally short-fiber
cotton.  I find it's easier to work with than the longer-fiber cotton
some people like.  For one thing, it is easier to get the amount you
want, and it's easier to handle.  With a really long-fiber cotton, you
need fewer fibers, and it's harder to estimate and harder to wind.  The
stuff we get seems to have fewer little pieces of junk and tangles too,
which I like.  It comes in various colors, from very light tan to a
medium brown.  "Breeder's Brown" is my favorite, but the color doesn't
matter at all.

I've used silk, and I don't really like it. The fibers are really long,
and once it's wound on it really wants to stay there! Some people have
reported having better results with it than with cotton in really dusty
situations, and one person says that one instrument really prefers silk
and the other really prefers cotton. Go figure. 

A fiber I've liked better than 100% silk is a silk-cotton blend, 25/75.
The silk fibers are cut shorter, so it goes on easier, and I still get
some of the endurance of silk without the other hassles.

 Alden



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:59:53 -0500
From: Matthew Szostak <gurdy _at_ midcoast.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?

Hello all-

I'm going to play "devil's advocate," and add a couple of cents here:

I know of a hurdy-gurdy player who learned to buzz in an informational
vacuum. The technique he developed is most unusual, and unique as far as
I know. Believe it or not, he can play all sorts of rhythmic patterns
and tempos without ever changing the speed at which he turns the wheel. 
He can produce short and long buzzes, from one up to what must be at
least 8 buzzes per turn (c.8, I guess is the acceptable shorthand),
sounding the buzz wherever in the rotation he wants. The position of
rotation of the crank has no bearing on the tempo or meter or stress of
the rhythms he produces.

One time I overheard him being told, by another player who was teaching
at the time, that he was doing it wrong and that he should stop doing it
his way and learn the "correct way." I just don't buy it. Theo, does
the way you do it "now" work for you? Personally, I think that there has
to be a better reason than "this is the way everyone else does it" for
you to change your technique. You implied in your message that you were
happy with your playing ("...satisfied with my trompette technique,
getting proficient at the coup de 2, 4, 4 irregular, 4 relache, and 6"),
and so why do you feel the need to change now after more than a decade?

By all means, work on changing your playing technique if you feel limited
by your present methods and the new way improves things for you - you
also said that after working hard at changing, you "noticed there was
something a bit snappier and sharper about the buzzes 1 & 3. It really
did have something that was lacking before." Just don't feel obligated
to change just because nobody else does it your way. What I'm saying
(and I'm sure I don't have to tell you this) is: take all of the advice
and apply what works for you. I'm sure Bill Staines has been through
this same thought process, and yet he manages just fine. For those who
don't know of Bill, he plays guitar left handed, but on a "right-handed"
guitar simply turned upside down, so that the highest string is at the
top of the fingerboard instead of the bottom. For most guitarists, it's
very strange to watch him play and try to figure out what chord patterns
he is playing.

One strong argument for changing that I can see has a timely example:
Maxou's upcoming workshop. If you want to learn about rhythms from other
players, you probably want to be in the same time zone technique-wise. 
My above-mentioned friend doesn't get much out of "ordinary" rhythm
workshops.

Looking forward to seeing some of you in a couple of weeks!

~ Matt



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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:38:32 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?

> My confusion with this method comes as I'm now trying to
> work on c.6 and can't seem to settle on the 'six-parts-of-a-circle' method
or
> the 'hexagon-over-the-circle' method.  The 'hexagon' version also puts one
on
> the 'down front' part of the circle, or about 2 o'clock.  This seems to
fight
> with the part of my brain that aims to put one at just past 12 o'clock for
c.3
> and c.4.  When I work on c.6, sometimes one method seems to help me,
sometimes
> the other.  Has anyone else wrestled with these knotty problems?

Ben,

I learned the c.6 method on my own, perhaps incorrectly. I never thought of
which parts of my hand the knob contacts. I start the  c.6 around 11 o'clock
or maybe 10:30. I have noticed now that it starts with  a push (from the
same position that I have been incorrectly starting the c.4 until now) I
think it is important to begin the c.4 and c.6 from the same spot so I guess
I will have to change my c.6 also even though it sounds nice and even with
the wrong starting point.

>My question is:  is this method
>of learning c.6 transferrable to 'usefull' tempo?  I somehow suspect that
I'm
>training different muscles to play c.6 at 60 bpm per 3 beats as I
>would to play it at say 80 bpm per 6 beats.  Maybe if I could understand
the
>German text of this great book???

Sorry I can' help with this question nor can I read German. I suppose I'll
have to go for a private lesson. Good luck,

Theo




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Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:50:10 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?

Hi,

I've got to agree with Matt on this one.  Theo, if your method is working 
well for you it can't be "wrong".  On the other hand, when I was learning 
to play Cajun accordian my instructor said that the best reason to try a 
different technique was because you didn't already know how to do 
it.  Sounds a bit trite maybe, you might want to learn to do the coup in 
the standard way, but not abandon your current method.  It may give you 
some added flexibility.  I play several instruments and I have rarely found 
that there is only one right way to do anything.

Many years ago I was profoundly impressed by a boy of 12 who had a room 
full of professional musicians astounded. He had taken a sound that his 
instrument made that everyone else was trying to eliminate from their 
playing and had incorporated the sound into a kind of rhythmic emphasis 
that gave him a unique style. It left the rest of us shaking our heads in 
amazement and saying "now why didn't I think of that?"

Where would we be if Valentin and Gilles had believed that the coup de 8 
wasn't possible?  Let's all push the envelope and see what happens.

:-)-------Cali



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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 09:11:29 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?

Hi List


Just a question:

why the "correct" c4  is better than Theo's "old" c4 ?
I think that one of the goals of a HG player is the
"making of a "nice buzz"...and Theo does it (very
well, I'd say...)

I actually use 3 different kind of c4 patterns (the
less used is the "correct one") and the "direction" of
 my right hand may change (in the same point of the
circle) according to "music".

Of course I'm not an
"excellent player" , I just play some baroque music
and I started with Bouin and Dupuits baroque methods
(both of them had "strange" ideas about
trompette.....)


=====
Marcello Bono

my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045

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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:15:24 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?

Hello,


marcello bono:
> (...)
> why the "correct" c4  is better than Theo's "old" c4 ?
> I think that one of the goals of a HG player is the
> "making of a "nice buzz"...and Theo does it (very
> well, I'd say...)
> (...)

I too know a player 'who learned to buzz in an informational vacuum' and
whose technique and abilities are and where not just astonishing but
stunning, at least some french players mentioned before were quite
impressed when they saw it ;-) . Its the same person who gave Theo the
advice to change his technique to be more efficient: Matthias Loibner. 

Yes, its a good way to see it as another technique one adds to the
personal repertoire, but for  players who do what most players do,
playing traditional french dance tunes it is the logical technique. And
coming back to Matthias, it is the 'more efficient' one. It is certainly
not really important if the eighteenth century composers repertoire is
your target. It is just a small step on the way to the universe of c4+
and there are techniques which give more control but there is nothing
that can compete with this technique if it is to play bouree a deux
temps (correct me maxou).

It is a fault of more than one method that they discribe the pos1 wrong
or at least mistakable in place and direction. and this is what it is:
wrong. 

I will discribe why it is wrong: In all this tutors the general target
is to teach c.4 with 'open' hand: the knob not fixed by the hands grip
but rolling arround freely. So there is no permanent control of the knob
aimed for. This causes that all the points the knob describes arround
the circle  are not equal. Four indipendent movements are defined which
do interfere with each other as less as possible. Four contact points on
the inside of the hand correspond whit these (and four directions of
movement are defined: 'down' 'pull' 'up' 'push'). And there is one point
that is privileged: the point where the hand accelerated by gravitation
triggers a buzz by simpy falling down. Without any active movement of
the arm or hand, just let go. A kind of 'natural' buzz. It is found by
positioning the knob at 12 o'clock and letting the hand rest, not to say
hang on the knob. In this position nothing happens the axle blocks any
vertical vector of the movement. Slowly moving the hand with the knob in
turning direction there is a point where the balance point of the hand
is no longer blocked by the axle and the hand falls down (naturally in a
bow, since it is attached to the knob). This is a special point on the
whole circle, and the one that is pos1 not out of esoteric feelings for
special points but because it is the point of minimum energy input for
getting a buzz.

As I said before this is not important with all trompette techniques and
it is clear that one can make (even more ?) beautyfull music with other
techniques but pos1  *is* crucial for the 'open' technique which is the
aim of all these methods. As it is not important for other techniques as
the 'closed' one with equal control of the buzz at any point there are
good reasons to accept pos1 of the 'open' technique as general pos1. At
least if it comes to mixing techniques this helps a lot.

regards,

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria

--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:55:02 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?

Hello,

ben grossman:
> While we're on the subject of coups, here's a question for you all:
> 
> I have been using the method of thinking of the subdivisions of the wheel as
> divisions of a circle with the one more-or-less at the top of the wheel: similar
> to the method in Dubois (and, I'm sure, others).  I recently got a copy of the
> Loibner/Delfino method which illustrates a square-in-the-circle method (for c.4)
> with one as the first down side of the square.  This is very similar in some
> ways to the 'circle' method of visualizing the action, but allows for more
> subtle variations of the figure for stacatto, legato and dynamics.  And I DO
> find it all a bit of a visualization/mind game since aiming to hit different
> part of my palm as I turn seems to coarse a motion.  Of course, this is what
> actually happens when you do it, but I find it easier to imagine the triangle,
> square or whatever.  My confusion with this method comes as I'm now trying to
> work on c.6 and can't seem to settle on the 'six-parts-of-a-circle' method or
> the 'hexagon-over-the-circle' method.  The 'hexagon' version also puts one on
> the 'down front' part of the circle, or about 2 o'clock.  This seems to fight
> with the part of my brain that aims to put one at just past 12 o'clock for c.3
> and c.4. 

I imagine the c.3 c.4 and c.6 all starting at the same position about
half past one ;-).
this makes that the 'front side' of the 'square' in c.4 is vertical and
the direction of the movement is 'down'. In c.3 the first side of the
imaginary triangle is hanging over a bit and the first side of the c.6
'hexagon' is very steep but not vertical . 
This corresponds with the intesity of the buzz as my imagination is as
following: if the hand wants to 'cut of' the distance of the radius by
following a straight line 'through' the circle the hand is accelerated
because it is forced to follow the longer distance arround the circle.
In the oposit it is possible to imaginate a slowdown - a no buzz - as
movement outside the circle.

I would describe the difference between imagination of a radial
movenment and of a polygonal movement as the heart of the two techniques
'closed' and 'open' in the one case a radial acceleration is intended
that is quite indipendent from positions in the other acceleration is
reached as described above.


> And, following Catherine Keenan's advice, I'm practicing all of the coups VERY
> slowly to a metronome which has cleaned up my c.3 and c.4 and given me hope for
> c.6 and c.8, but I can't yet play c.6 at a usefull tempo, though I can now play
> the 2nd half of it as a triplet in c.4 or c.3.  My question is:  is this method
> of learning c.6 transferrable to 'usefull' tempo?  I somehow suspect that I'm
> training different muscles to play c.6 at 60 bpm per 3 beats as I
> would to play it at say 80 bpm per 6 beats. 

My impression is that the location of the movement in the arm moves from
the hand upwards over the years and the c.6 gets more automatized and
faster with this. So I think that automatuizing the positions and
directions comes first, followed by training the muscles in question.
I must confess that I do not play music where I much need a very fast
c.6 (exept as triplets). Usually I use the c.6 in a medium fast tempo
for changing the sound of the instrument = turning the wheel slower.

regards,


Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria

--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:39:41 +0000
From: ben grossman <nostyle _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?

>
>
> I would describe the difference between imagination of a radial
> movenment and of a polygonal movement as the heart of the two techniques
> 'closed' and 'open' in the one case a radial acceleration is intended
> that is quite indipendent from positions in the other acceleration is
> reached as described above.
>

Dear Simon,

If I wanted to use both techniques, would that make me a 'radial polyganist'?  How
would my wife feel about this???;>}


All the best,


ben




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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:03:29 -0500
From: "jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.qwest.net" <jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Subject: RE: Re: [HG] coup de ?

OH OH.  Watch out guys.  Remember the last flap when we got started on a line like 
this?  :-)  I have already thought of a half dozen replies to that question that I 
probably shouldn't post.  They are all very funny plays on words that end ist and 
begin with the names of various instruments that have double meanings.  Nuff said, 
use your imaginations.  Tee hee.
Joan


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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:11:45 -0500
From: "jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.qwest.net" <jeepstr42 _at_ pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Subject: RE: Re: [HG] coup de ?

Remember the old song Rock Aroung the Clock?  I think we should name this 
meathod  Knock Around the Clock.  :-)   Joan



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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 09:18:12 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: RE: Re: [HG] coup de ?

Joan said,

>I have already thought of a half dozen replies to that question that I 
>probably shouldn't post.

So post 'em ;-)

Alden



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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 09:47:37 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] From Joan


Joan said: 	

Hi Ben.  Is there any chance you could diagram this for us?  I think
paintshop allows for making your own drawings and then adding text.  It sure
would be useful for de beginners.  :-)   hint hint


Joan



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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:04:30 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?

The nearest I've got to mentally analysing the c6 is to use the first and
third positions of the c4 as the 1st and 4th coups of the c6. all that is
needed is to fit two radial accelerations between them.
Neil Brook,
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk


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Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 22:35:28 +0000
From: ben grossman <nostyle _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] From Joan

Hello Joan,

I presume that a diagram of 'radial polygony'would be out of the question....


Two things prevent me from providing simple graphics to illustrate these coup
ideas.  One is that there is a ban on attachments on this list and I'm afraid
that I'm not net savy enough to put them up on my sad little website.  The
second is that I'm the least qualified amongst us to offer advice on coup
technique - I'm just floundering around myself.....Perhaps Simon or Macello or
Maxou or.......



All the best,


ben



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Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 17:40:48 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?

Hello,

Neil Brook:
> The nearest I've got to mentally analysing the c6 is to use the first and
> third positions of the c4 as the 1st and 4th coups of the c6. all that is
> needed is to fit two radial accelerations between them.

aditionally the pos1, 3 and 5 of the c6 equal the positions of the c3. 
The pos2, 4 and 6  of the c6 form a upside down triangle which
rhythmically corresponds with the offbeats of a threetime in c6 :

[c.6] pos1(1)pos2(&)pos3(2)pos4(&)pos5(3)pos6(&)

So, besides '123 123' with c4 pos3 as orientation as Neil mentioned,
there is '12 34 56' with c3 as orientation and good old '_2_4_6' offbeat
with the upside down triangle and pos3 of c4 as anchor.

regards,

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria


--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



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Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:08:12 -0500
From: Beverly Woods <tradmusic _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: diagrams on web (was:[HG] From Joan)

I have webspace and can put things up in it, if anyone would like. Please 
email me first (offlist) for requested procedures before sending any
attachments.

Beverly


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Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 19:40:55 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] coup de ?

Hello Everyone,

Many thanks to all the excellent players who took the trouble to answer my
questions. This has been a very informative topic for me and I have started
to explore the suggestions.

Actually, I am pretty energized by the whole idea and the chance to learn
something new. It has helped me already.

Now I have to pack for Maui.

Aloha,

Theo



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Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 11:57:21 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] From Joan

Hi Joan,

Drawings, text ,photos and animations are available on my site under
trompette workshop.

Neil

hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk


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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 19:10:05 -0000
From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] Unknown French Luthier

Alden is currently restoring a French guitar shaped HG for me.

He has found the following written directly on the wood of the inside of the
keybox side hidden by the keys

"Vielle de Campagne qui a été faite le 9 janvier 1818 par germain
deni(s-)josèph de Cormoz département de l'Ain"
He signed below "Germain (his mark)"

Cormoz seems to be 50km North North East of Lyon in Ain departement or
perhaps now Rhône-Alpes
There may be another Cormoz 20km nearer Lyon

The inscription is well written in an "educated hand"

I guess it may be a "one-off" instrument.

Any thoughts / information from you guys out there would be most welcome

Graham Whyte


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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:36:56 +0000
From: Jim Yeeles <jim.yeeles _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: [HG] I'm up and running

Hello,

Last weekend I picked up my new HG from UK maker Mike Gilpin and am
extremely pleased with the results. It's a little flatback in
maple,  walnut and sitka spruce (I think).  For the curious, Mike should
have a picture of it at <http://www.hurdygurdy.biz/> some time in the
future.

For the UK listers:

Does anyone know of any upcoming events suitable for absolute beginners
on ‘D' instruments?  Unfortunately, I wasn't able to
attend the Norwich workshop at the start of the year and that looked like
it would have been ideal.  Also, I gather there may be something in the
offing in the Cambridge area on the last weekend in August which I also
can't make.  So if anyone is aware of anything else please let me
know.

I plan to pop back up to Mike for the occasional lesson so I don't
pick up too many bad habits but it's a bit of a trek (by UK
standards).  I'd also like to try and get some tuition a bit nearer
home.  I live in North-West Kent but getting to London would not be a
problem.  Any recommendations?

For anyone:

I've read that in Bourbonnais tuning the mouche (g) is rarely used.
 Can someone explain why this is and when it would be employed?

Thanks

Jim


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:44:43 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] I'm up and running

Es schrieb Jim Yeeles:

>I've read that in Bourbonnais tuning the mouche (g) is rarely used.  Can
>someone explain why this is and when it would be employed?

I am not a Bourbonnais expert but this is my guess:
A drone setting with a D below the G (like d-g or D-d-g) is not mixing
very nicely since the harmonics of these D's are D-d-a so there would be
a hearable second sounding in the drone. So only the combination mouche
+ trompette would make sense.
Additionally, having two notes in the drone fixes the root of the
tonality which is not fitting to many Bourbonnais melodies I know. 
And, without predicting what causes what (the instrument te melody or
reverse), many Bourbonais melodies have a range from the root note
upwards.
In other traditions a setting with D melody and G drone would be more
usefull or is typical anyway since their typical range of a melody is
down to the fifth or includes the (major) seventh.

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria

--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:49:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Alden Hackmann <darkstar _at_ u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [HG] Unknown French Luthier


On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, graham wrote:

> Alden is currently restoring a French guitar shaped HG for me.

Cali also ;-) ;-)

> He has found the following written directly on the wood of the inside of the
> keybox side hidden by the keys

Has anyone ever seen an inscription like this inside the keybox?  It was a
first for us.

Alden


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:56:06 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Unknown French Luthier

  Bonjour,

    The expression " ...de campagne "  translates by " country-style "
as in " pâté de campagne " , so my guess is that the label means
" home made " by  Germain Denis Joseph  wich would indicate
an amateur building a single instrument for his own use ?

   Germain , Denis and Joseph are all fist names ( Christian names ? )
It would be fun to look at a phone directory of the area to see if
one is a local common family name ?

Henry


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: 20 March 2002 07:06:19 +0100
From: Maxoubbn _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Unknown French Luthier

Hi !

Denis Joseph Germain (1792-1865) is (a bit) known in France. In "La
vielle en Bresse" (book by the Bourg en Bresse museum), there's
some words about him. Only 5 HG were known when the book was
published (circa 1980). I think yours is may one of the first he
made. I'll send you later the whole text and pictures (in french).
Now I'm going to teach maths to pupils...
Maxou


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:08:23 -0000
From: Ruth Bramley <ruthbramley _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] I'm up and running

Congratulations Jim! - Yes, it's a lovely instrument...I've been watching it
take shape in Mike's workshop over the month. Hopefully the pic will be up
on the site very soon....let us know when the photos are ready, Mike.

Sorry you won't be able to make the workshop up here.

Update on this is that the date has been changed to Sat 31st Aug/Sun 1st
Sept. The workshops (GC Gurdy with Mike Gilpin; DG Gurdy with Chris Allen;
guitar with Tony Daly; Pipes with Ferris Jay) will all take place in the
village hall complex in the village of Haddenham near Ely, Cambs, UK. Cost
of the weekend is expected to be around £25, with workshops running all day
both days, and the chance of a session on the Sat evening. (Very) limited
camping space available in our garden which is 5 mins walk from the hall.
Excellent pub opposite, or various take-away food available in the village.
Please contact me off-list if you're interested.

Cheers
Ruthie







= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:19:22 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Unknown French Luthier


Dear Maxou,

I keep meaning to order this book from CTMRA.... it's one of the few that 
we don't have.

Alden


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:28:14 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Unknown French Luthier


>
>    Germain , Denis and Joseph are all fist names ( Christian names ? )
>It would be fun to look at a phone directory of the area to see if
>one is a local common family name ?

There are four Germains in Cormoz.  Given that the village has a population 
of 540, some of these people are probably his relatives. Anybody want to go 
on a genealogical field trip to eastern France?

Alden  



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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:55:31 -0000
From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] Denis Joseph Germain retrouvé

Maxou,
 
Fantastic!!!
 
Merci mille fois
 
I already phoned five Germains in Cormoz - no luck at all
 
I will mail you direct, pictures of the HG and the inscription (taken by
Alden)
 
Graham

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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:56:06 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Unknown French Luthier

  Bonjour,

    The expression " ...de campagne "  translates by " country-style "
as in " pâté de campagne " , so my guess is that the label means
" home made " by  Germain Denis Joseph  wich would indicate
an amateur building a single instrument for his own use ?

   Germain , Denis and Joseph are all fist names ( Christian names ? )
It would be fun to look at a phone directory of the area to see if
one is a local common family name ?

Henry


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:22:41 EST
From: Maxoubbn _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] Denis Joseph Germain retrouvé

Hi !

Later, Germain moved to BEAUPONT, very close to CORMOZ. You can try
there.
Maxou


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:16:16 -0000
From: peter.j.hughes _at_ bt.com
Subject: RE: [HG] I'm up and running

>I've read that in Bourbonnais tuning the mouche (g) is rarely used.  Can
>someone explain why this is and when it would be employed?

Hello Jim,  

Several points here:

1. Sounding a G above a D gives an interval of a perfect 4th, which
classical/baroque musical theory considers to be a discord in need of
resolving. Thus having it going continuously as a drone interval is not
normally desirable.  That said, to our modern ears it doesn't sound _too_
discordant, but I personally don't really like the sound and neither ,I
suspect, do the Bourbonnais.  

2. Playing a G below a D is fine - that's a perfect 5th, which is highly
concordant.   Thus G mouche with just the (higher) D trompette is fine and
can sound very pleasant - try it with the Horses Bransle in G for example.

3. Tuning the mouche to A above a D drone is also a perfect 5th and for
tunes in Dmaj or Dmin can sound excellent. Sort of 'bluesy'.

4. Keeping drones to the same note allows more flexibility in the keys you
can play over them - the tonic and dominant in major and minor keys both
work very well.  Drones at a 5th limit you to the tonic only. Of course,
brief modulations away from this can be quite acceptable.

HTH

Peter.

  


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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 06:41:59 -0000
From: Ruth Bramley <ruthbramley _at_ btinternet.com>
Subject: [HG] Correction

Oops....

"The workshops (GC Gurdy with Mike Gilpin; DG Gurdy with Chris Allen;
guitar with Tony Daly; Pipes with Ferris Jay) will all take place in the
village hall complex in the village of Haddenham near Ely, Cambs, UK."

should have read:

The workshops (GC Gurdy with Mike Gilpin; DG Gurdy with Chris Allen;
guitar with Tony House; Pipes with Ferris Jay) will all take place in the
village hall complex in the village of Haddenham near Ely, Cambs, UK.  

Sorry Tony for changing your name!!!

Ruthie



= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 11:09:56 +0100
From: cor westbroek <bourree _at_ hetnet.nl>
Subject: [HG] bourdon 2002

Hi list,
 
I know it's a bit late, but anyone who is in or near Holland coming
weekend, should come to "Bourdon 2002"
saturday march 23.
 
Fot details look at
http://www.antenna.nl/draailier-doedelzak/ 
 
go to "berichten" and then to "projecten".
Might see you there,
Cor Westbroek



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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:09:35 -0000
From: graham <graham _at_ altongate.co.uk>
Subject: [HG] Veille de Germain

Alden & Cali,

Sypathetics added to the Germain

How do you feel about doing this now we have an instrument of known
provenance ?

Assuming you have not yet done the work, my feeling is to wait until I get
more info on some of the other 5
extant examples.  If none of them have sypathetics then perhaps we ought not
to mess with it.

Cormoz is not that far from Jenzat.

I got in touch with the Musee de Brou (very close to Cormoz) who have an HG
collection, no reply so far.

La Vielle en Bresse is variously described as a book or sometimes as an
exhibition catalogue (of the musee's vielle collection ?).

I also found 2 editions ?

La Vielle en Bresse 1985, 199p, 120 ill n.b.

La Vielle en Bresse 1994, 126p, 43 ill coul et 200 n.b. co-edition Musee de
Brou - Adam Biro, Paris

I am confused which to get and where to buy from


Thanks for all your help

Graham




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Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:13:26 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Fête de la vielle !



   For all those who live in the East part of the continent
( or have extre air miles left )
The date of the Fête de la Vielle has been fixed for 2002


Hi everyone,

We are having our annual Fete de la Vielle et Cornemuse in Sharon, on
May 11th this year.
Daniel Thonon and Iain Mac Harg will lead the activities.
The event starts at 10 a.m. at the Sharon,Vt  Seven Stars Hall in the
center of the village.
This event is for all lovers of Celtic French and Breton traditional
music.
Workshops and informal sessions during the day.
Atttendance fee:  full participation  $ 20.
Some private tutorial lessons may be available for an extra fee. Contact
the teachers if interested.
No evening concert is planned this year, but rather informal music
sessions among participants.
Lunch on your own.
For more info, please visit
                       www.prydein.com/vielle
or call us at:
                       802 763 8812
Want to help?  Please tell your music friends about this event. Thank
you.
To register, sign up by calling 802 763 8812, or email us at;
                    the weepiper _at_ vermontel.net
See you there.
Michael & Gisele Mac Harg



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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:33:58 +0700
From: Keiji OTAKE <kei_otake _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] Instrument de diable

Hello List

It is known the HG was called "beggar's instrument"in the past.
This name came from the fact that HG was in the hands of beggars.
Also I hear the name of "instrument of devil".
How has the HG got this name?

Can anyone tell me the origin of the name "instrument of devil"?

Thank you in advance
Kei


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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:03:00 -1000
From: Don Lax <donvlax _at_ maui.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable

I thought that was the violin



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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:23:29 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable

Hello,


Keiji OTAKE:
> It is known the HG was called "beggar's instrument"in the past.
> This name came from the fact that HG was in the hands of beggars.

during the centuries of its existence the hurdy gurdy had and has a
number of functions. As The earliest evidence shows it as church music
instrument and to all times since then there seems to be a continuity of
its use as rural dance music instrument. Solo and in small bands: duos,
trios. From time to time it also appears in music at the court like in
france in the 1720ies so more or less 'serious' composers wrote for it.
It also was and is a instrument used for accompanying singing. there is
also a continous use of the instrument by beggars. in this function it
is often succeed by the barrel organ. in this function hurdy gurdy is
used as synonym for barrel organ (same in german: 'Leierkasten' can mean
'Drehleier'/hurdy gurdy and also 'Drehorgel'/barrel organ).
These varuious functions of the hurdy gurdy exist and existed paralell
to and quite independent from each other, tsaking a closer look one may
even say tht it would be better to see the hurdy gurdy as a family of
instruments with relatives in different forms of music.



> Also I hear the name of "instrument of devil".
> How has the HG got this name?
> Can anyone tell me the origin of the name "instrument of devil"?
> 

In (christian) fundamentalist religious movements (instrumental-)music
and dance general are often quoted as evil. 
One of the hurdy gurdies main function is and was beeing a dance music
instrument. If you look into the records you will find that it is not
the hurdy gurdy in special that was treated as evil but all dance music
(instruments). The hurdy gurdy just was the most typical dance music
instrument and therefore got the status of a symbol.  

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria


---
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:51:45 -0500
From: Beverly Woods <tradmusic _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable

Yes, I thought it was the fiddle too. When I finally succumbed to temptation
and bought a fiddle last year (after 30 years of playing fiddle tunes on
everything else) a fiddle-playing bandmate said (in a tone of
congratulation): "The devil's instrument finally got its claws in you!"

Offhand I can think of several reasons for this kind of term. One is that
various branches of Christianity attempted to suppress and destroy anything
to do with music that might lead to dancing; the fiddle is of course guilty
of that, and presumably a hurdy gurdy might also offend.

Fiddle tradition is full of stories of fiddlers who had encounters with the
supernatural, easily leading into stories that they had pacts with the
devil, etc. There's a lovely album of on Northside called "The Devil's Tune"
which is a compilation of Nordic tunes associated with the devil. Not all of
these are fiddle tunes, though I can't recall any hurdy gurdy on it; the
other most implicated instrument in that region appears to be the overtone
flute.

Certain scales and modes are associated in some places with the supernatural
and/or the devil. Presumably any instrument you played these tunes on would
become "the devil's instrument" in some sense. Nyckelharpa lore also has
stories of players in competition with each other as wizards as well as
players. So, not too far from there to the hurdy gurdy, I suppose...but when
I hear "the devil's instrument" I still think: "fiddle."

Of course for those of us who are beginners on such creatures, the learning
process could also inspire such associations.

Beverly


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:05:24 -0000
From: Colin Hill <c.hl _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable

Off the top of my head and being too lazy to look it up, one of the great
composers dreamed of the devil sitting on the end of his bed playing the
violin. When he woke up he wrote down the music he had heard in the dream
and it became a "hit". His name and the name of the music will come to me in
a moment I'm sure but possibly that is where it got the name of the devil's
instrument and, I suppose, the HG is a "violin like" instrument to the
uninitiated (rosin, strings etc).
Colin Hill

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:10:00 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable

I think Simon is probably right in this, but I would point out that 
drone instruments, at least in Eastern European traditions, are 
especially associated with the devil. In Hungary there are many folk 
tales concerning bagpipes (most of them now gone since bagpipes are 
not common any more) about possessed bagpipes that play themselves or 
witches' sabbaths to which pipers are spirited away to perform for 
naked witches, only to receive a pile of horses' hooves as payment, 
etc., etc. Given the reputation Hungarian pipers had for drunkenness 
I suspect more than one piper who came home in the morning with a 
hangover and no notion of where he'd been all night (perhaps asleep 
in a ditch) had to cook up a story in a hurry for his wife, so the 
pipers themselves may have had something to do with the stories.

Of course that doesn't explain about the HG directly, especially in 
Western European tradition, but I have heard of similar tales in 
Britain, and some folk instruments in Western Europe are still 
decorated with mirrors to ward off the "evil eye" (the flashing 
lights from mirrors are supposed to keep it at bay). Given the 
similar sound and role played by both HG and pipes in many traditions 
I wouldn't be surprised if you see similar associations with the HG 
in Western Europe and an intersection between folk traditions about 
these drone instruments and the opinion of more austere Christians on 
the matter.

Perhaps an additional factor would be the association of HGs with 
beggars. In more Calvinist ideas beggars are somewhat ambiguous -- 
they are a cause for charitable giving, but they are also highly 
suspect as being the unelect -- if they were worthy of salvation God 
would make his election obvious in them and they wouldn't be beggars. 
In Catholic countries beggars would have been better tolerated, but 
still associated with crime and the underworld in the popular 
imagination.

To an extent you see this still in parts of the U.S. In small towns 
and more conservative areas street musicians are often thought of as 
beggars here in the U.S., regardless of why they perform or their 
actual economic status. They are associated with morally suspect 
"Bohemian" lifestyles.

I live in Bloomington, Indiana and have been informed by locals that 
street performance is difficult in this town because the police tend 
to give street performers a hard time (they cite anti-panhandling 
ordinances among other things). I suspect though that in more 
cosmopolitan and liberal areas that busking is much less of a problem 
and not considered nearly so suspect.

(Just as a note here. I am not using "Conservative" and "Liberal" in 
their political senses, but rather as terms for social attitudes 
here. Thus one could be politically conservative yet liberal in the 
sense I am using the word.)

The funny thing is that many of the same people who dislike street 
performers and consider them a suspect bunch here in the U.S. go to 
Europe and like them. I suspect though that these are the same people 
who think of foreigners in general as morally suspect, so street 
musicians fit right in elsewhere.

-Arle Lommel

P.S. In the violin/fiddle as the instrument of the devil category, I 
suspect one must include the famous Charlie Daniel's song "The Devil 
Went Down to Georgia".


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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:53:45 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable

 --- arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org> wrote:

 > I think Simon is probably right in this, but I
would
> point out that 
> drone instruments, at least in Eastern European
> traditions, are 
> especially associated with the devil.

It was the same for Italian LAUNEDDAS (Sardinian
bagpipes ....without the "bag").
The use of silver reeds was forbidden for this reason
and I think it's not a legend!


=====
Marcello Bono

my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045

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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:58:39 -0500
From: Beverly Woods <tradmusic _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Re: busking 

I have worked on busking legality issues in several locations, and I made 
most of my living busking, mostly in greater Boston, for years. I have a few
comments on your ideas below.

First, it is unfortunately not true that street performers are respected in
cities like Boston; I had a Boston police sergeant lean over me while I was
playing (with a proper permit, etc.) downtown, and growl: "I wish you and
all your kind were at the bottom of Boston Harbor!" A Cambridge policeman
under similar circumstances opined loudly to another that I was "an obvious
criminal type." (If you haven't met me, feel free to view a picture of me on
the website in my signature and decide for yourself if such an assessment
makes sense.) These attitudes, and a general disrespect for street
musicians, are very common everywhere in the US that I know of.

Regarding your last paragraph, a further irony is that many of the street
musicians that Americans are happy to like when in Europe are actually the
same (American) street musicians they ignore while at home. I have not
busked in Europe, but many of my friends have. I hear from them that the
kind of respect you imagine is more common in Europe than in the US. In the
US, from what I have seen, foreign street performers are often more
respected than local ones. So I'm not sure about your idea about the foreign
issue. Seems as if many Americans think a foreign musician=artist while US
musician=bum.

Beverly


--
Beverly Woods
music website:
http://www.sethausten.com/beverly.html
email: tradmusic _at_ earthlink.net



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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:04:04 -0000
From: Nicholas O'Sullivan <nosullivan _at_ stangelascollegesligo.ie>
Subject: RE: [HG] Instrument de diable

This phenomeon is also alluded to in Georges Sand's Les Maitre Sonneurs

Nicholas

-----Original Message-----
From:	marcello bono [SMTP:lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it]
Sent:	25 March 2002 14:54
Subject:	Re: [HG] Instrument de diable

>It was the same for Italian LAUNEDDAS (Sardinian
>bagpipes ....without the "bag").
>The use of silver reeds was forbidden for this reason
>and I think it's not a legend!



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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:25:59 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable

  Bonjour,

    Actually , in the early form , organistrum and symphonia , it was
used by the catholic church ,   in later times it became , as you sat
the instrument for beggars , mostly blind ones .
    Beggars as well as any travelling trades , have often raised suspicion
but my own theory is that it is either Luther or Calvin who declared all
drone instruments as instruments of the devil .
   I am still trying to locate where I read it but just look at a map of
Europe , there are bagpipes ( and some HG )  in France , Italy,
Belgium ( but none in Holland ) , part of Germany , they disapeared
from England after Henry VIII , it more or less follow the religious
practice of the countries.  Maybe the conduct of the french court
in the XVIIIth cent . did not help much ?   <g>

   My 0.02$ ( Canadian : 0.012$ US )

A bientot,

Henry



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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:10:26 -0500
From: Eugene <eugenebienvenue _at_ softhome.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re: busking 



>>the kind of respect you imagine is more common in Europe than in the US

I spent almost ten years busking in Europe. With my now ex-wife, I toured
many of the medieval and renaissance cities of that ancient continent. And
for every city there is at least one story of abuse and mistreatment.
I mean, with original instruments: HG, Lute, recorders, shawm, crumhorns,
cornamuses, percussion- in renaissance costume- it could hardly be assumed
that we were bums and ne'erdowells. But while the majority of people were
tolerant, kind and generous (as I believe they are everywhere), those to
whom the very idea of freedom, or that one might actually survive, or worse,
do well without giving one's soul within a hiearchy of ambitious climbers,
were motivated beyond belief, and abusive beyond any hope of survival.
I lost my love, my calling (busking), my home (at that point a camper-van),
my patrie (Europe). I was raped (stripped searched by police), verbally
abused on a daily basis, and confronted with intolerance that  would have
tried the patience of a saint.
We continue to live in a world where the good are persecuted...the
ambivalent are in the majority and the bad are the only ones  motivated to
wield power. And while I was happily surprised at the responsiveness and
generosity of the general public, as I finally prepare to rekindle my
career, I expect more of the same, and wonder when the human race will
finally grow up.

Yours,

Eugene

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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:16:33 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable & street minstrals

Hello,
Correct, but also there is another side. Some strident, Slavic Christians
love and use drone and the hurdy gurdy,
not just now but historically.
Oh but please do understand me, that I am not arguing. At least I do not
wish
to at all.
People have called drone music a devil's sound in so many words.
but anyone familiar with Byzantine chant knows well that Slavic
(Christian) music is filled with drones. Or I should say, it is based on
droning.
It was and still is. Those churches often had problems (and I disagree with
their feelings) not with drone sound but with instruments in general. but,
with the hurdy-gurdy it still isn't that simple.
I merely think it is appropriate within this topic to say that there are
God-believing people who revere the hurdy gurdy. The only proposition I
guess that I feel a desire to directly correct is the notion that serious
Christians took the view that these drone instruments are of the devil.
A view that I believe to be...well, crazy.
I will also go out on a limb here and suggest that any serious hurdy-gurdy
history enthusiast should be compelled to buy Natalie Kononenko's book
called, "Ukrainian Minstrels...and the blind shall sing."
It is all about hurdy-gurdy players. (information link given below)
~~
One person (keiji began with a question, and then don) mentioned a violin as
being the devil's...
There is a part of the tradition or connotation with the Norwegian,
Hardanger fiddle. The cd "Devil's Tune"
is all Hardanger fiddle--and a really nice CD. I own that.
Beverly has mentioned all this. And as mentioned, that a related instrument
is the Nyckelharpa. What an awesome instrument that is. By the way, possibly
the leading modern
nyckelharpa player in the world has done a duet CD with hurdy gurdy. That
would be something great to own.(I will this year, for sure.)
These instruments have had hypnotic or so called devilish quality. I think
that was all a mistake, to put it very mildly.
~~
There is also that one song in bluegrass music, very well known in America
in may be the 70s, where the devil plays the
fiddle and they duel over who is faster, the human fiddler or the devil.
~~
Perhaps religious history is not the main stay of this list. I don't think
it is at all... I feel distress when I consider not just religious
history, but human history. The hostility in and out of the church seems
incomprehensible to me. Again, put mildly.
Still, I can mention that in some Russian and Ukrainian local churches, the
hurdy-gurdy gained positive and religious recognition. It is reported by the
researcher,
Natalie Kononenko, that many Ukrainian monasteries and Abbeys have
hurdy-gurdys stored
somewhere there inside. Susann Palmer writes (pg 239) that a hurdy-gurdy was
reported to have been
made for the Tsar. There is a CD of a wondrous singer from the Ukraine:
Vasyl' Nechepa. Also, there is a beautifully-done CD from Poland of all solo
singing and hurdy-gurdy playing; called Ukrainska Lira, by Mychajlo Chaj.
The recording is rustic, but the art work is remarkable. All the material is
highly religious or Slavic {eastern European Christian.} Also, the world
preeminent Russian choral chant historian, Anatoly Grindenko of the Russian
Patriarchate Choir,  has adding lyra to his music just
a little.  All Orthodox music and one of this list's members has seen that
in concert. Also, I have mentioned Natalie Kononenko's book and web site
before--all about peasant, religious hurdy-gurdy players.
http://www.brama.com/art/kobzar.html
Also there is a guild in the Ukraine. Also a lyra player in New York, member
of the experimental bandora trio. Also, a man in Toronto who owns several of
the Ukrainian hurdy-gurdys. All of this is material that I mention is
religious in a positive way. There is also a dazzling CD by the Siren Choir
and the leader, Andrey Kotov, plays the hurdy gurdy.
http://www.sirin.ru/ens.html
Finally, Balazs Nagy of Budapest has a bass tekero, (and I am buying one of
these) on which he has depicted the Hungarian church's history in a carved
art work on his key-box lid.
~~
It is strange how people have taken opposite views on... peasants, beggars,
minstrels, or mendicant musicians. The real devil incarnate against
hurdy-gurdy players in the 20th century Stalin, and the 1939
"congress" of hurdy-gurdy players in the Ukraine--all of which perished.
Some (idiots) have despised street minstrels. But, the stereotypes have been
polarized not just with in the church but outside it, too. That is what I
wish to
show, that it is not solely a church problem. It is a human or societal
problem.
To imagine them as thieves, or rather as noble, wonderful people. Forgive me
please for
showing some emotion at the end of my letter. I have deep feelings in favor
of "lowly"
or street performers. Myself, I believe very strongly in the importance
playing on the street. And, that is very much fundamental to my interest in
the hurdy-gurdy. (I plan to write Bev and her husband directly to show
support.)
I have had my son do it for years--busking. Just write me if anyone wishes
to see my (child) criminal at work in New York City. He was almost arrested
once, and kicked
out of a mall another time, all with all the permission needed ahead of
time.
People who despise street players are... oh well, I better calm down.

I hope you can indulge my time (or your time) in mentioning all of this,
along with my feelings added towards the end.
I am not an expert in anything... just very interested in Slavic history.
And, I support busking.
from,
jim


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:02:50 -0000
From: dave _at_ dpraties.freeserve.co.uk
Subject: Re: [HG] Re: busking 

Oh, busking and societies attitudes to it! a never ending story. In my 
younger days, we would often busk in my home town of 
Manchester, and the police response was varied, but always with the 
same message. One gruff looking cop stood and listened to us for a 
while, even tapping his foot to the music. When we finished a set, 
he said " Very nice, now  ***k off out of it or I'll arrest you all ". 
Other times we just got told politely to go, but the irony was that if 
you went to the tourist information and picked up a leaflet about the 
city centre, it listed as one of the attractions " many buskers and 
street performers "   Ho hum.
Cheers, Dave


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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:08:58 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable

Hello,

Dance music in most parts of europe until recently (before the
accordeon?) was drone based. In some contexts a relation between the
drone and the supernatural is described but not a general relation
between drone and evil. It is easy to list examples where drone based
music is seen as relation/symbol to god or whatever positive
supernatural belive. 

There is certaily no relation between protestant areas and drone based
music. I do not want to go into detail but this is certainly not the
case. The phenomenon is older than the time protestant churches exist
and there is no geographical relation.

Basically everything can be (and somewhen was) target of persecution by
religious fundamentalists. In the sixteenth century the catholic church
was not far from banning any kind of music, even singing from service.
Islamic fundamentalists forbid any kind of music in Afghanistan. Some
fundamentalists ban  meat eating or alcohol or nudity or reading books,
laughing, dancing, begging, working, sex, TV. Others make the same
things part of their worship. 

So what is the general conclusion: that there is no general conclusion.
Hurdy gurdy or drones or whatsoever are whatever a certain (part of a)
population in a certain periode thinks they are. Please do not
generalize. The context is the most important thing.

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria

--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:36:17 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable

    Silver reeds ?????


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:31:12 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable

   Hello Simon,

     I am ready to go into detail , as it should be rather
easy :
           Thue or false : Henry VIII had bagpipes and hurdy gurdies in his

personnal belongnings , he was the last english king to do so , HG
disapeared
from england only to come back in the 19 th cent , played by the "
Savoyards "
            The fact that the Scottish bagpipe is the best known around the
world
does not contradict the fact that all but the military bagpipe used by the
Scottish regiments of the British army , were forbidden.

            True or false : The Nederlandse speaking people of the Kingdom
of the Lower Countries ( today Holland and Belgium )  were united by
a common language and divided by the reform .  Result is that the drone
instruments disapeared from Holland only to survive in Catholic Belgium .

           Simple fact : the  most well known hurdy gurdy style is the
french
lute back from Jenzat , wich would have probably disapeared if  l'abbé
Sornin had not given his own gurdy to Pajot , to make copies of it .
 Was the abbé Sornin a devil sympathiser ?

         I guess that with the exeption of the harp and bassoon <g> all
music instruments must have been used by the devil at one time or
another , fiddles , flutes , clarinets , drums ,even something as modern
as the saxophone   , there are stories and legends at one time or
another for all of them .
        Now the case of the Ukrainian Lyrnikis : a big part of their
repertoire was composed of religious hymns , and probably the rest
of it was social satyre , a definite health hazard under  Stalin .

    My personnal conclusion is that  the special status of drone
instruments is closely related to the reform , as well as many
popular misconceptions believed today .

   Of the soap box now ,

 Henry Boucher


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:48:19 -0800
From: Nathan Roy <imakhy _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable


Just a passing comment, but I think it should be borne in mind that the 
Christian church's bad reputation concerning music was originally based on 
practical concerns. Consider the following info:

"Greek philosophers considered music to have great psychological and even 
supernatural powers. The Doctrine of ethos maintained that different types 
of music could affect human behavior. For example, music in the Dorian mode 
would cause persons to become reasonable and contemplative. Conversely, 
music in the Phrygian mode would cause persons to become passionate and 
belligerent. Orpheus, one of the great mythic men of Greece, was said to 
have the power to move objects and influence the gods with his music. The 
sound of a given instrument was also very powerful. For example, the lyre 
and the kithara were said to evoke reason and were linked to the worship of 
Apollo, the god of reason. Similarly, a double-reed instrument known as the 
aulos was said to evoke passion and was linked to the worship of Dionysus, 
the god of ecstasy."

Basically, playing music in church was often invoking pagan blasphemy. Of 
course, the hurdy-gurdy probably isn't old enough to have ever been 
associated with an ancient god, but the whole taboo on drones may have its 
origins in Greek superstition.

Today, since those pagan gods have been relegated to fairy tale status and 
pose virtually no religious threat, music has mostly returned to the high 
status it enjoyed during Old Testament times. As long as it's not involved 
in a bacchanalian orgy, playing the HG should be perfectly fine for the 
faithful to pursue, unless it becomes more important than God...

Just thought I'd throw that in the mix.

Nathan Roy



= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:05:33 +0200 (EET)
From: Juulia & Esa <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable/ silver reed

>    Silver reeds ?????
>
Silver reed here is propably name of a plant, maybe arundo donax?
Sardinian launeddas is, as far as I know anything about it, a mouthful of
reeds. Player puts them between his lips, (or more like in his mouth).
Maybe launeddas I saw and heard some years ago had 2 melody reeds (w.
fingerholes) and one for drone or 2 for drone? Player used circulatory
breath, of course. His name is Gavino Muraga (?), and his vocal group was
Tenores di Goine Nuoro. They told that this instrument really used to be
forbidden and thus only used in mountains & bushes, far away  from clerical
ears.



Their concert was a very strong experience: in a church together with
bulgarian female trio from Rodopea-area and a hardanger-fiddler -duo from
Norway.

Yes: ancient sardininian "throat-singing" + human bag-pipe+ hardanger+
droning deep female voices - one after another in a church...

Esa Mäkinen
Finland

..........................................................
Esa Mäkinen & Juulia Salonen
Variskuja /Kråkgränden 1b8
01450 VANTAA / VANDA
FINLAND
tel. +358-9-8235318
ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi

website of our band:
www.ihtiriekko.net
(updates coming soon)





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Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:05:18 +0100 (CET)
From: marcello bono <lyra_mendicorum _at_ yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable/ silver reed

 --- Juulia & Esa <ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi> wrote:

 > >    Silver reeds ?????
> >
> Silver reed here is propably name of a plant, maybe
> arundo donax?
> Sardinian launeddas is, as far as I know anything
> about it, a mouthful of
> reeds. Player puts them between his lips, (or more
> like in his mouth).
> Maybe launeddas I saw and heard some years ago had 2
> melody reeds (w.
> fingerholes) and one for drone or 2 for drone?
> Player used circulatory
> breath, of course.


Yes, Launeddas is a 3 single reed cane  pipe and they
used to say that a silver made reed (I mean the
vibrating part only) was able to drive crazy both the
player and the listener, so they were easy prey for
the devil (more or less....I have a good old book
about these "strange" Italian traditions, I should be
able to say you more about it, if you like.

(The strange suggestion at the end of my email are by
yahoo...I really don't care about Anastasia....she's
not my cup of tea :o) 
 

=====
Marcello Bono

my hurdy-gurdy page is
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045

______________________________________________________________________

Guarda il nuovo video di Anastacia su Yahoo!
http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/?http://it.music.yahoo.com/anastacia/


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Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:14:01 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable

Hello,

Henry Boucher:
> My personnal conclusion is that  the special status of drone
> instruments is closely related to the reform , as well as many
> popular misconceptions believed today .

living in the part of europe that was and is cahtolic by majority of the
people, I never would allow myself to see things that simple. Starting
with the fact that catholic pamphlets called Luther 'the devils bagpipe'
there is enough evidence that seeing (also) the drone based instruments
as evil from time to time is not a privilege of reformation (in
general). 

As I tried to point out before it is not reformation in special but a
effect of  fundamentalist efforts of any kind to suppress everything
that is not 'from God' - often meaning not in the book (literally;
ignoring the fact of translation anyway). The reformation was just a
relatively succsessfull effort. And in fact it is not very correct to
generalize and see anglican church, Zwingli, Calvin, the Waldenser,
Luther, Huss, the Hugenottes ... as one homogene movement (they *have*
one thing in common: the catholic church as enemy). 

In general, why are so many people interested in the fact that some guys
in the past thought the hurdy gurdy may be evil. What is the benefit of
the propagation of this fact ?

(May be this discussion may better be continued on a mailing list about
religious matters.)



Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria


--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:04:53 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Diederot and d'Alembert Encyclopedie original copy available


Dear HG list,

I received this from Jesse Read, who asked if I could post it to the 
list.  Not having 400 E close to hand (much as we would love to own it), 
I'll pass it along to you.  I hope someone picks it up... ;-)

Alden


>This is Jesse Read, bassoonist, currently living in Rome. I just ran across
>an edition of
>the Diederot and D'Alambert Encyclopedie, original edition, with certificate
>of authenticity, of 1769-Paris-Bernard. Among the interesting plates is the
>wonderful plate of
>the hurdy-gurdy. Searching websites, I thought I might find someone who
>would find it especially interesting, and I would be happy to be the middle
>person if you would like me to buy it for you I cannot buy it, but wonder if
>you
>might be interested. The the price is 400 euros. I would be happy to
>buy it for you if you are interested. I am living here for a few more
>months, and simply can't leave them behind. I have looked for years for
>the bassoon and
>oboe plates, and am delighted to have found them.



>Cheers,
>Jesse Read
>bluebirdscastle _at_ hotmail.com
>39 06 5883860
>www.jesseread.com



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Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 21:12:40 +0000
From: Stephanie Maynard <miladyblade _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] Introduction/ISO starter instrument

Greetings to the list!

I recently joined the list and wanted to make a quick introduction and take 
the opportunity to a few questions. I play in an amateur early music group 
in Phoenix, AZ and have finally capitulated to my long-held hurdy gurdy bug. 
:)

I'm currently in search of a starter-level instrument that could be used for 
both individual study and for some dance pieces our group does.   Our group 
consists of a full recorder consort, and a various times viol/viola, cello 
or viol da gamba, lute, and percussion.  In the near future, we should also 
have some louder-voice instruments that ought to be able to balance out a 
hurdy gurdy.

For what we're doing, I suspect one of Olympic Musical Instruments Minstrel 
models would probably be perfect in terms of the volume-level and range.  
Much to my dismay, they have a 2-year waiting list at present.  I'm not so 
much interested in strict accuracy of the instrument for the time-period of 
music we're doing as I am in range of the instrument.  In a perfect world, 
I'd like to find something with 2-octaves (or at least around an octave and 
half).

One of the sources of instruments I've been looking at is the Early Music 
Shop in London.  Can anyone provide me with any input on either the 
"Hungarian guitar shaped Hurdy Gurdy by Szerényi" or "Simple 4 string hurdy 
gurdy by Turner" they carry?  They don't have much detail or pictures of 
these instruments on their site.

I'm also interested in the Phoenix model made by Helmut Gotschy, but the 
webform on the English version of his site appears to possibly be broken.  
Anyone know what his wait times may be?  I know LITM carries his 
instruments, but there's a rather noticeable mark-up in price compared to 
his site.

Any suggestions or feedback would be appreciated.

Regards,

Stephanie Maynard




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Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:19:24 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Devil's instrument,


   Hello Simon ,

     Being part of a group that is identified as both french speaking
and roman catholic  in the vast anglo-saxon protestant ocean
that is the north american continent , I sometime feel the need
straithen up facts .

     I have read the reference to the condemnation of drone instruments
by  the reformed church somewhere ,  I just need to get my hand on it.
( actually it is not a priority in my life , I rather spend my free time

working on the baroque HG that I promised to my wife , the keyboard
is almost finished BTW)  .
     But I have never seen an official condemnation of any music
instrument
from the pope .
     As I said , most music instruments do have a legend or a story
about the devil , only two did have official acts of condemnation
about them .( as far as I know )

     Now , lets try to go back to the origin of this discussion ,
Is Keiji happy with our collective aswer ?

    I would add that the fact that the HG being often associated
with the bagpipe probably suffered from its bad reputation.
The bagpipe is related to goats by its material ( goat  hide )
its name ( chabrette ) its users ( sheppards )  and the devil
is often represented with goat's horns, beard or feet .

Now a technical question :  I want to make a set of tangents
with brass shafts because in our climate wood shafted tangents
are a nightmare .  How do you prevent the brass shaft to become
loose in the key shaft ?

Henry




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Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:16:49 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Introduction/ISO starter instrument

Hello Stephanie,

I played a Phoenix model a few weeks ago. It was just made for Doug Frantz
douglask _at_ prismnet.com here in Austin. My impression was that it has a
traditional tone and a very easy to controld in the Phoenix model made by 
Helmut Gotschy, but the

I played a Phoenix model a few weeks ago. It was just made for Doug Frantz
douglask _at_ prismnet.com here in Austin. My impression was that it has a
traditional tone and a very easy to control dog. I also played one of
Helmut's lute backed HG's last week and it too had a good dog and
traditional sound. I would order the tangents attached with screws, not
pegs. His English site works for me with IE http://www.gotschy.com/english/

Wolfgang Weichselbaumer
http://www.weichselbaumer.cc/atelier/english/index.html also makes a very
nice basic instrument. I have his Alto model and I would not part with it
for any other. I think the waiting time for a basic instrument is not so
long with these makers.

Post again before you buy and we can answer off list. Just because it's a
starter instrument doesn't mean it needs be low quality.

Then of course you might want to meet other players and the perfect place
for that is the OTW festival in Seattle in September.

Regards,

Theo Bick


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Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:23:02 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Devil's instrument,

Henry,

The ones I've seen tap the keys and use machine screws.

Theo

> Now a technical question :  I want to make a set of tangents
> with brass shafts because in our climate wood shafted tangents
> are a nightmare .  How do you prevent the brass shaft to become
> loose in the key shaft ?
> 
> Henry
> 
> 



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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:26:41 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable

Hmm, and I thought HGs were a religion for this audience.



>In general, why are so many people interested in the fact that some guys
>in the past thought the hurdy gurdy may be evil. What is the benefit of
>the propagation of this fact ?
>
>(May be this discussion may better be continued on a mailing list about
>religious matters.)
>

-- 


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:07:24 +0700
From: Keiji OTAKE <kei_otake _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] Re: Instrument du diable

Hello all

Thank you for your rapid and profound responces
concerning "devil's instrument".
Discussion goes so far...
I am afraid I could not appreciate the full religious
meaning in discussion.
But you are not to blame for this.
I am a Buddhist.

Thank you
Kei
Thailand

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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:33:07 -0800
From: Patricia Lipscomb <hurdygurdygirl _at_ molehaven.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable

Amen!

arle lommel wrote:

> Hmm, and I thought HGs were a religion for this audience.
>


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:36:29 -0800
From: Patricia Lipscomb <hurdygurdygirl _at_ molehaven.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Instrument de diable



Beverly Woods wrote:

>
>Offhand I can think of several reasons for this kind of term. One is that
>various branches of Christianity attempted to suppress and destroy anything
>to do with music that might lead to dancing.
>
This reminds me of the old joke:

Do you know why [insert Christian fundamentalist denomination] are 
opposed to people having sex while standing up?

They're afraid it might lead to dancing.




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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:59:09 -0500
From: zhenya <zhenya _at_ prexar.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Iceland?

Hi,
May I add one more tid bit? I totally agree, though,
that no big religious discussion
would be at all proper to do on this: a hurdy-gurdy list.

I am always afraid that I will say something wrong and I never mean to...
Not that anyone said that I did.
But, perhaps one would prefer these details as part of folk-lore history?
That shifts the emotionality away from the term of church.
What I thought of was to say that I think this was, and is,
a very interesting thread, and it has me going over what
materials I do have to study from. I think that when any e list inspires a
person to
muse and study more, it has served a high cause.

Pg 95 of Susann Palmer's book, it indicates Bishop of Iceland (died 1550)
owed a hurdy-gurdy (called by him a "fon")
"with a beautiful tone, strings, and keys."
It seemed fun to connect Iceland with the hurdy-gurdy.
I thought, wow, just to imagine if there were a time machine and someone
could see what that would have looked like. Just the thought of a mid-evil
bishop in Iceland holding a hurdy-gurdy. What a thought. Whoa.
For those who can not look that page up, the following names are given as
variant names, historically for the HG:
fon, fonfon, fonfonia, rilya, cymphan, cyphan, and cymbal, and of course
symphanye, leier, bauernleier,
and many others--including lira and lyra.
It is suggested that 1749 was the year of the earliest reference to a:
hurdy-gurdy, by that phrase.
And, that someone also said: hum-strung.

Well, best to all...
maine (jim)
pg 41: "What hirdy-girdy this ye keep I canna get a wink of sleep."




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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:43:27 -0500
From: Beverly Woods <tradmusic _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Re: Cymbal?

Cymbal? That seems odd, since that name is usually associated with 
instruments of the hammered dulcimer family: tsimbl, cymbal, cymbala,
cymbalom, etc.

Beverly

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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:04:03 +0000
From: Stephanie Maynard <miladyblade _at_ hotmail.com>
Subject: [HG] ? on geared heads


Greetings again.  Quick question for the list...  I've been looking at a lot 
of listings for various instruments and noticed that most makers offer both 
friction-fit and geared heads. What is the advantage to geared heads?

My primary instrument growing up was the cello, so I'm familiar with 
friction-fit but unfamiliar with other types.

Stephanie




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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:38:16 EST
From: DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com
Subject: Re: [HG] ? on geared heads

Question:   Does anyone know if violins can be ordered or fitted with
geared heads?

Thank you,

Jake Conte


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:38:14 -0600
From: Theo Bick <tbick _at_ austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] ? on geared heads


Hello Stephanie,

With friction pegs you sometimes need a "tourne a gauche" (spelling?) to
turn the pegs. This is just a wooden handle to give you a better grip.
Geared pegs can always be turned with just the fingers and can be easier to
use. Two out of three HGs that I've had with friction pegs tuned just fine
but a third had problems with himidity changes and the pegs or holes going
out of round. From now on I will always get geared pegs.

Regards,

Theo


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:40:39 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] ? on geared heads

Hallo,

Stephanie Maynard:
>  I've been looking at a lot
> of listings for various instruments and noticed that most makers offer both
> friction-fit and geared heads. What is the advantage to geared heads?

It affords quite a lot of craftsmanship and time to build friction-fit
pegs that work as smoth as geared do. And making friction-pegs well
working limits the possible designs of the pegbox/head. Time is
expensive, craftmanship not universally popular, and there are some
colliding targets to match in hurdy gurdy peghead design. 
So in the balance of needs: reasonable price, sometimes limited
craftmanship, peghead design reqirements, geared pegs often are the
better compromise.

On very cheap instruments friction pegs are sometimes used to save
money, but in this case they usually are of bad quality.
On medium price instruments geared pegs may be used to save time and
therefore money.
On high end instruments geared pegs are often used because of the
limitations of peghead design.

The best pegs I ever used myself on a hurdy gurdy were friction-fit pegs
with the hole for the pegs having the grain of the wood paralell to the
pegs. This was done by first drilling holes slightly larger than the
pegs into the pegbox then closing them with a dowel and just now
drilling the conic holes for the pegs (naturally all the pegs geometry
and the craftmanship must be all right too).

regards,

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria

--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:42:24 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] ? on geared heads

Hi Stephanie,

Your Cello has pegs which are supported at both ends by the pegbox. Gurdy
pegs are supported at the thick end only which is less efficient. Taper pegs
do work, it's just that machine heads work more freely / accurately and as
there is probably no other instrument as dependent on perfect tuning as the
gurdy, any device to make tuning easier has to be worth considering.
Neil Brook,
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:44:42 -0000
From: hurdy.gurdy <hurdy.gurdy _at_ virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] ? on geared heads

The closest you get is screw tensioned pegs available from Schaller.
Neil Brook,
hurdygurdy _at_ onetel.net.uk
www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk

      ----- Original Message -----
>
>Question:   Does anyone know if violins can be ordered or fitted
>with geared heads?


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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 17:33:27 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] ? on geared heads


Hi Stephanie,

Providing that they are well made either friction pegs or geared tuning 
pegs work well on a hurdy-gurdy.  The advantage to geared tuners is that 
they don't require a tourne-a-gauche and they allow for quick, fine 
adjustments.  Hurdy-gurdies have quite a bit of tension on the strings and 
to get easy, accurate tuning with friction pegs requires that you use a 
kind of lever or wrench called a tourne-a-gauche (don't laugh at my 
spelling if I screwed this up, my spell check doesn't do french).  This 
means that you have to locate your t-a-g each time before you tune.  For 
some of us this is a challenge, even when we put a string on it and hang it 
from our pegheads.  Also, friction pegs tend to develop little flat spots 
which make it a mite more difficult to tune.  I'm sure you've experienced 
this with your cello.  There is one ideal place where the string is 
perfectly in tune, but somehow the peg wants to come to rest either 
slightly above or below that pitch.  Geared tuners don't do that and they 
don't bind in the hole because the humidity has sudden risen.

On the other hand, friction pegs are more traditional and look cooler if 
you aren't into mechanical devices.  The ultimate decision is up to the 
player as to whether the easy of mechanical tuners is more important or the 
tradition and appearance of the friction pegs.

:-)----Cali



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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:13:51 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] ? on geared heads

Hello,

Alden & Cali Hackmann:
> 
> >Greetings again.  Quick question for the list...  I've been looking at a
> >lot of listings for various instruments and noticed that most makers offer
> >both friction-fit and geared heads. What is the advantage to geared heads?
> (...)
> Providing that they are well made either friction pegs or geared tuning
> pegs work well on a hurdy-gurdy.  The advantage to geared tuners is that
> they don't require a tourne-a-gauche and they allow for quick, fine
> adjustments.  Hurdy-gurdies have quite a bit of tension on the strings and
> to get easy, accurate tuning with friction pegs requires that you use a
> kind of lever or wrench called a tourne-a-gauche 

Well made friction pegs do work well without a 'tourne-a-gauche'. I used
to play a four chanter hurdy gurdy without finding the need of a
'tourne-a-gauche' and also I have a Jean Noel Grandchamps lute-back
which can be tuned without one. The string tension on hurdy gurdy
melody-srings are equal to those of the viola and the drones to a cello
so I do not really see the requirement of such a tool as a general rule.
It is true that there are instruments which cannot be tuned without, but
this is certainly caused by one of the following problems:

very common: the peg and its fitting is bedraggled. Often the use of
chalk and dry soap can solve this. 
The string is wound arround the peg poorly. This changes the angle under
wich the tension of the string pulls the peg.

Quite often the geometry of the peg/pegbox/string system is badly
designed. 
Sometimes just the position of the hole for the string is drilled into
the peg at a wrong position. This is easily changed by drilling a new
hole.
Sometimes the angle between peg-axle and string is wrong: The peg is
pulled out of the pegbox by the string and pure force is used to press
the peg into the peg-hole: the most common reason for the use of a
'tourne-a-gauche'. or the other way round: the string pulls the peg into
the peghole to much. Ideally the string pulls at an angle of nearly 90°
slightly tilt so that the string is pulled just a little bit into the
pegbox (this is something an unexpirienced buyer can check inspecting
the target of his desires).
Last but not least the design of the peg itself is very important: A
handle that is big to give enough lever, a shaft with a diameter that is
optimized to the friction needed to hold the string and to minimize
force needed to turn it, at the end where the string is wound up the
shaft should be as thin as possible to give a good lever again.
Naturally this is limited by the material used for the peg.

Why bothering about friction pegs ?
on the long term they are more robust and if they are to be repaired and
replaced this can be done easier: Wood will never be out of sale. And
geared pegs do break especially if they are buildt in into existing
instruments and peghead designs since they were made to work in Banjos
and their design and strenght is not optimized for usual hurdy gurdy
peg-boxes.

regards


Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria

--
http://members.chello.at/simon.wascher/



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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:28:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] ? on geared heads

--- DISKJAKEY _at_ aol.com wrote:
> Question:   Does anyone know if violins can be ordered or fitted 
> with geared  heads?

Yes they can be, but I don't recommend them unless you have serious
problems with the pegbox and and are too lazy  to repair, or too cheap
to have it done (like me.) The main  argument against them is that they
add a lot of weight out the on the extreme end, which changes the
ergonomics considerably (i.e. makes it harder to play).  Think about an
epee with a cantaloupe stuck on the end....

Oh, yes, one other reason is that while the product is out there, I
haven't seen any quality, so while geared tuners are better than no
tuners, they're still not very good.

Roy Trotter

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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:27:45 -0500
From: "Smishkewych, Wolodymyr" <wjsmishk _at_ indiana.edu>
Subject: RE: [HG] ? on geared heads

Dear friends:
what about steel-string guitar machine heads for chanterelles and geared
violone or double-bass tuning machines for drones? i've seen this once or
twice, and they seemed to have worked well, despite the aesthetic mishap
their use seems to suggest... a well-designed pegbox sometimes helpsto
camouflage unsightly gears. (these ideas regarding simon's note about string
tensions and banjo-type pegs.)

best,

Vlad




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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:47:35 +0200 (EET)
From: ottilia _at_ saunalahti.fi
Subject: Re: [HG] ? on geared heads

The best and only truly reliable geared tuning machines I have tried are 
those which are actually made for bass-guitars.They are strong and 
accurate and a LOT cheaper than a set of those lousy banjo tuners. I 
have used japanese Warwick -brand without problems. Their design is 
rather acceptable - the "handle" is not any elephants ear-sized plate...
And of course you can let your wallet shoose the quality it likes best: 
from chrome-plated to matte-black titanium...

Here in Finland a set of banjo tuners was about 600 FIM (100 EURO now) 
last year, - 2 broke immediately- but a set of 5 of those Warwicks was 
only 350 FIM...

As a big minus they have a 90 degree angle in the mechanism, they are 
not straight and fitting such device on ordinary luteback later on is 
certainly impossible. And they are heavy too - putting 6 of them to some 
light trad. instrument would be foolish. Maybe they could find their 
place on a peghead of some modern, larger instrument?

Esa Mäkinen
Finland





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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:23:34 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: [HG] Re: pegholes and pegs

While on the subject of pegs.. I am working on a 1912 hurdy gurdy, it is in
great shape except for the pegholes, which are so out of round it is
virtually impossible to tune, with tourne a gauche or otherwise. I bought
the largest 30:1 taper reamer ( a tool like a tapered drill bit that turns
cyindrical holes into tapered ones) I could find, only to discover that the
original holes were drilled at such angles that when you insert a reamer,
the tip of the reamer will hit the body of the hurdy gurdy before the
cutting sides of the reamer make contact with the sides of the hole.
I am thinking of solutions and a couple have come to mind so far:
 a) cut down the reamer.
 b) plug up all the holes and re drill them at angles that point downwards
instead of towards the instrument.
I am wondering if any of you out there with more experience and/or
immagination can suggest better ways to tackle this problem and get this
thing doing what it was meant to be doing.

Finally a couple of questions on old pegs. You can take all six pegs from
one (old) hurdy gurdy and try them in the same hole, some will sink to the
hilt and some will only go in a quarter of the way, no two give the same
result. Even with the naked eye one can tell there are differences in
length and width. (Friction pegs on new instruments all look the same
size). Is there a reason for this,  or are they the results of an inexact
science? If the latter is true, does their taper conform to the 30:1 ratio
of most reamers?

Juan




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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:05:29 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] ? on geared heads

Hi,

While I agree with Simon on a several points I have to say that I must be a 
wimp when it comes to tuning friction pegs without a t-a-g.  I have played 
and tuned well over one hundred hurdy-gurdies, most of them by reputable 
makers.  And, while I can tune some of the friction pegs by hand, it is no 
easy task.  I have fairly strong hands for a woman, but to get a fine 
adjustment when the string is up to pitch is usually beyond me.  I know 
that we make our pegs to fit very carefully, we turn the tapers on a metal 
lathe and they are very precise and match the reamer taper exactly, and we 
set the string angles in with as much care.  I still have a hard time 
tuning them by hand.

On the subject of banjo tuners coming apart a couple of thoughts.  We use 
Schaller machines and in the early days we did have two of them fail on 
us.  We always mount them so that they are easily replaced.  Our analysis 
of the problem was that the outer case of the machine was crimped onto the 
inner one and sometimes that joint failed.  However, the newer machines we 
have purchased in the last couple of years seem to have repaired this 
problem and we haven't had a failure in a long time.  The other types of 
machines I have seen used just don't agree with my sense of the 
esthetic.  We have an option to replace the mother of toilet seat pearl 
grips with wood or to replace the entire top with a wooden grip so that it 
looks like a friction peg.  That's my favorite choice.

Simon,  just out of curiosity, what kind of tuning pegs do you have on your 
instrument/s?  You mentioned that you thought builders used machines as a 
cheaper alternative.  The high quality Schallers aren't cheap.  We charge 
the same price for the Schallers or for hand made friction pegs.  Comes out 
about the same in time and money.

:-)-----Cali



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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:46:54 +0100
From: Simon Wascher <Simon.Wascher _at_ chello.at>
Subject: Re: [HG] ? on geared heads

Hello,

SB/JW:
I am working on a 1912 hurdy gurdy, it is in
> great shape except for the pegholes,
> (...)
> I am thinking of solutions and a couple have come to mind so far:
> (...)
>  b) plug up all the holes and re drill them at angles that point downwards
> instead of towards the instrument.

changing this angle will change the geomety of the peg/string system
deeply so do calculate if such a change would make things better. as I
said the angle between string and peg-shaft  should be near to 90°
slightly tilt so that the string pulls the peg into the peg-box a little
bit (from the usual design of lute-back hurdy-gurdies I guess that
pointing downwards could be an improovement).

> Finally a couple of questions on old pegs. You can take all six pegs from
> one (old) hurdy gurdy and try them in the same hole, some will sink to the
> hilt and some will only go in a quarter of the way, no two give the same
> result. Even with the naked eye one can tell there are differences in
> length and width. (Friction pegs on new instruments all look the same
> size). Is there a reason for this,  or are they the results of an inexact
> science? 

Since the cone is very steep changes in diameter have a strong effect.
So I am sure it is partly 'inexact science' but also the effect of
abrasion and compression of the wood by use is noticable. As the
differences appear on both sides, peg and peg-hole, they may add up to
the double if you swap pegs: Originally the pegs are fitted to a certain
peghole (the main reason why they look equal on new instruments).


Alden & Cali Hackmann:
> While I agree with Simon on a several points I have to say that I must be a
> wimp when it comes to tuning friction pegs without a t-a-g.  I have played
> and tuned well over one hundred hurdy-gurdies, most of them by reputable
> makers.  And, while I can tune some of the friction pegs by hand, it is no
> easy task.  I have fairly strong hands for a woman, but to get a fine
> adjustment when the string is up to pitch is usually beyond me.  I know
> that we make our pegs to fit very carefully, we turn the tapers on a metal
> lathe and they are very precise and match the reamer taper exactly, and we
> set the string angles in with as much care.  I still have a hard time
> tuning them by hand.

the string-side ends of the pegs I have got on the friction-peged
instruments have a diameter of about 6.5 mm with handles of viola size.
I think that this ratio gives a very good lever. 
Also with violins, some people have a hard time to turn the pegs by
hand, and most people do not call for geared pegs. 
There are lighter and cheaper solutions which can be applied by any
change of strings or even without any special work directly on the
string. Fine tuners (is this the right word?) as used in various forms
and sizes on violins, violas, cellos, viola da gamba.
The heads of hurdy gurdy pegs are often, compared to those used on
violin famyily instruments, very unergonomically and sharp-edged and
using them without t-a-g is hurting. 
Last but not least many people who are used to use a t-a-g grip the
peg-head by hand in a way that makes it harder than neccessary. It does
matter how you grip the peg-head: holding it between fingertip of thumb
and index-finger gives a bad lever and the index finger cannot develope
much force in this position. It is more effective to close the fingers
to a fist and grip the peg-head between the thumb and the first
index-finger joint which now as a shorter lever and is also supported by
the other fingers. Now the turning movement is no longer conducted
'inside' the hand but from the wrist upwards.

> Simon,  just out of curiosity, what kind of tuning pegs do you have on your
> instrument/s?  You mentioned that you thought builders used machines as a
> cheaper alternative.  The high quality Schallers aren't cheap.  We charge
> the same price for the Schallers or for hand made friction pegs.  Comes out
> about the same in time and money.

So, I am not a hurdy gurdy maker, and I am not very deeply into
calculation, but that is what two hurdy gurdy makers told me.

On the instruments I ever owned/own there are: Friction pegs on the
J.-N. so your mileage from my 
thoughts may be small...) are that you would probably be better off 
rebushing (your option b) the holes at a new angle than cutting your 
reamer (ruining a perfectly good tool for other jobs in the process). 
Simon's cautions would apply: you would want the angles to be such 
that the string would pull the peg into the box (i.e., they need to 
point slightly toward the body of the instrument or the string 
tension would tend to push them out of their holes).

 From what you say about some pegs sinking in almost all the way and 
others not going in very far at all, I would be very leery of reaming 
the existing holes without rebushing them. Remember that the narrow 
axis of the hole is what determines how far the peg sinks into the 
box and it is this axis that reaming the holes would change, so you 
could end up with holes that are true but which can no longer hold 
your pegs firmly since they are now too wide. This would make 
rebushing a necessity.

Rebushing would also allow you to ream the holes just enough to grab 
the pegs at the level you want and make them all uniform at a height 
of your choosing, something you would probably be unable to do by 
reaming the existing holes

If you are going to rebush them with wood you should look through and 
encyclopedia of wood at a local bookstore or library and make sure 
that your intended wood has very low movement in service and high 
crush resistance -- it would be a shame to go through the trouble of 
rebushing the holes only to find that your bushings move too much 
with humidity changes and that you end up with the same problem you 
set out to fix.

One final note -- it sounds like the pegs may also out of round and 
that the long axis of the pegs is trying to match the long axis of 
the holes (think of trying to turn an oval inside another oval). So 
check the pegs as well.

-Arle


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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:57:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re: pegholes, pegs, & geared tuners

--- arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org> wrote:

> ... you would probably be better off 
> rebushing (your option b) the holes at a new angle than cutting your 
> reamer (ruining a perfectly good tool for other jobs in the process).

A lot of what's available for tools need some modification to be useful
for luthierie or repair of a particular type of instrument, but maybe
not... If the peg angles are wrong, you're going get a gigantic hole
that the native pegs will never fit, so you're back to option B anyway.


It may get complicated either way you go. It is very difficult to get
full contact with a bushing in such a hole. There is an (uneven) taper
in an out of round hole. You could kill a lot of time doing that. It
might go easier to (1) get some OK-but-not-perfectly-fitting bushing in
there. (2) Drill the holes correctly, now you have a non-tapered,
straight-sided hole that will be easy to perfectly fit. (3) Then ream
as needed.

Hope that helps........

A few random thoughts on related discussion.

Turn a Gosh <g>: I never needed one on the Dewit, the 5 pegs are really
spread out tho'. I fondly remember the "double takes" I'd get at the
festival when I'd just grab a key and tweak it. The Siorat has eight
keys, and a couple of the insiders require 'the Persuader'. I hadn't
noticed since Simon mentioned, but my grip on the key is thumb and
first joint of the index.

Geared tuners: With the gut (or synth) strings, the bigger shafts of
electric bass or classical guitar tuners would be indicated. I don't
think either would be appropriate for a retro-fit, so the Schallers
might be the only choice. I should mention that the wooden pegs, on
most other instruments, also fit into a support at the tip end, which
the classical tuners would also require. Greg Whitcombe has a peghead
style that might be modified to accommodate geared tuners. (I'm having
a hard time staying on line today, so pardon my manners in not grafting
in the link.) 


Sincelery,

Roy Trotter, Springtown, Tx, USA 


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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:32:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: [HG] Re: Busking

One technique that is very effective in Japan: Hit and Run.

The stated rule is "Don't stay anywhere, for 30 minutes." The police
and the Yakusa are pretty territorial, but will tolerate the
occaisional intrusion. You bail off the subway, Play a tune or set,
pass the hat, play another, pass the hat, do it again. Thank everyone
profusely thru-out, "arigato, arigato, arigato..." then blast off. At a
very large urban station, you might just pop in one door and out the
other side 3 or 4 times. Probably it's better to jump back on the
"densha" and go down the tracks for a station or two and start over. If
anybody really wants to talk or buy you some refreshment, most of the
bars and coffee shops are clustered around the station. I never noticed
a loss of income from taking the occasional break and most shopowners
are very happy to unload  large bills for your loose change.

I don't know if that would work everywhere, but I got the word from a
man who takes a "world busking tour" every few years and actually turns
a nice profit.

Hope that helps:

Roy Trotter

P.S. On the other hand, we had a session one evening (in the Dear Old
USA) in front of a coffee shop and the owner of the neighboring shop
called the police.


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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:31:46 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re: pegholes, pegs, & geared tuners

I guess I didn't specify enough what I had in mind for Juan. I 
envisioned him following this process:

1. Drill out the existing peg holes at the angle he wants with a bit 
big enough to completely remove all vestiges of the old holes. 
Obviously, the bigger the difference between the new angle and the 
old, the bigger these holes would have to be. Now he has holes way 
too big for his pegs, but that's OK.

2. Glue turned wooden plugs into the oversized holes.

3. Drill pilot holes through the wooden plugs

4. Ream the pilot holes to final size.

That way he doesn't need to worry about making the bushing to fit the 
old hole. Depending on the instrument and the care with which this is 
done it could improve the looks, or at least look very intentional. 
That's one of the oldest carpenter's trick: a mistake in one place is 
just a mistake; a mistake repeated everywhere can be a "feature". I 
did this once with a table I was making in which one drawer side was 
cut too narrow. I glued a purple-heart strip down it to make it wider 
and then cut the other drawer sides down and did the same thing to 
them. What would have looked like a mistake had I simply "repaired" 
it turned into the nicest feature of the table.

It is not unusual in renaissance wind instruments to see bushings put 
in place on finger holes in exactly the manner I describe. This was 
usually done because the hole was accidentally cut too big and the 
only nice way to tune it down was to bush it. Makers at the time 
often called attention to this by making bone bushings that 
contrasted with the wood of the instrument; it can look quite nice.

-Arle



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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:55:08 -0800 (PST)
From: David Smith <dtsmithnet _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: [HG] Ebay Hurdy Gurdy

Hello,
I see that there is a nice looking Reichmann Luteback
Hurdy Gurdy for sale on ebay. Here is the address so
take a look. 
David Smith
Michigan USA 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=854748908



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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:06:49 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re: pegholes, pegs, & geared tuners

Thanks Arle, Simon and Roy for your inputs, I have a clearer and more
decisive idea of what to do. I was pretty much going to go that way and it
is encouraging to hear that my ideas are not totaly off the wall, I also
learned a lot in the process. Always better to gather as much information
before drilling holes!
Arle, I love the carpenter's trick of a mistake in one place is just a
mistake, but repeated it's a "feature". I think every musician has borrowed
that one at some point or other when  a bum note in played in front of an
audience, Hey, that's the way the tune goes.
I am still wondering about the pegs though. Is there a way of refurbishing
the shaft when it is showing little compression rings or is it better to
turn a new peg? I would like to keep the old ones if at all possible. I was
thinking of those things violin peg makers use that look like pencil
sharpeners, but they look too short to accomodate a vielle peg. Hmmm...
maybe I can make one.

Juan




= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:29:48 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re: pegholes, pegs, & geared tuners

Without seeing the pegs it is kind of hard to tell what you should do 
with them. If you can center the pegs on a lathe you could go at them 
with some sand paper to sand past the ridges, but getting them 
centered is going to be the trick. If you had a four-jaw chuck with 
fully independent jaws you could do it through a trial and error 
process, but that might be more than you want to do (and, if you 
aren't careful you could damage the head on the peg with the chuck 
jaws). If you're lucky you might find one of the original center 
points still in the peg as a conical depression, and that could help 
center them.

Alternately if you have some metal that you could put an edge to you 
might be able to make a tool like the one you describe for violin 
pegs. It probably wouldn't be too hard to make if you have access to 
the right tools. If you're interested I will make a quick drawing of 
what I think would work (let me know if you want that). The only 
things you would need are some small scraps of wood, a coping saw (to 
cut the groove for the sharpener's blade), a drill, your reamer, an 
old hacksaw blade, and a file. The hardest part would be sharpening 
the steel cutter in it, and that would just be tedious is all. (As a 
side note, fix your pegs *before* you worry about the holes. It's a 
lot easier to have the peg in hand and make the holes than it is to 
make the holes and then find that your pegs are too small because you 
fixed them.)

I see Henry just posted about Gorilla Glue. That really might be the 
way to go because you can then keep your peg heads and make a shaft 
out of something hard enough to hold up to use. If you can't get 
ahold of Gorilla Glue where you are you might want to look at Elmer's 
ProBond *polyurethane* glue (they have several glues under the 
ProBond label but only the polyurethane one would be good for what 
you want) -- it is a similar glue to Gorilla and *very* strong with 
woods. The only disadvantage is that it foams as it sets up, so you 
would need to do some cleaning up after it has set, which takes about 
24 hours for full strength. (I haven't actually used Gorilla myself, 
but it does have an excellent reputation as about the strongest stuff 
around.)

Hope this helps,

-Arle



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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:50:27 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re: pegholes, pegs, & geared tuners

  Bonjour,

  With modern adhesives ( like the " Gorilla glue " ) it could be
possible to keep the existing peg head and glue them on a new shaft,
but the joint will have to be carefully designed .


Henry Boucher


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 01:03:11 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re: pegholes and pegs


Juan,

Several suggestions have been made, but I'll add mine to the mix:

- Before you do anything else, check that the pegs are 1:30 taper.  It 
would be a real bummer to find out otherwise afterward...  I do this with a 
~3 cm thick test block that I have drilled with different sized holes and 
reamed with different parts of the reamer, so that I can check pegs of 
various diameters easily.

- In the interests of authenticity, I'd maintain the existing peg 
angles.  This means you need a shorter reamer, or reamers. You probably 
paid a fair chunk of change for that nice reamer you've got,  so it seems a 
pity to shorten it (though I did this with a cheapo reamer we got from 
Stew-Mac which turned out to be warped).  You can make your own reamers on 
the metal lathe: Set the appropriate taper on the compound,  chuck up a 
piece of W-1 drill rod, and turn the taper down.  You then need to mill out 
the cutting edge on a milling machine (happens you know a friendly fellow 
luthier who will do this, or you can find one locally).  Harden and temper 
the tool (this is the really fun part!!! playing with fire!!!),  put a 
handle on it and you're in business.  While you've got the taper set, might 
as well make several of these in overlapping sizes.  BTW, this taper 
doesn't have to be 1:30 - it can be whatever the pegs are, though you 
fervently HOPE that it's 1:30 so the tools will have some use in the future.

- I think you'll want to bush the existing tapered hole.  Filling by 
drilling and gluing a dowel has been described.  A refinement is to use a 
tapered peg for filling,  matched to a tapered reamer.  Again, you'd need 
several reamers to do the job right.   Alternatively, a Morse Taper 1 (MT1) 
reamer may be just what you need. You can make the tapered stock on the 
metal lathe, and predrill the center so the drill and reamer will follow 
the centerline.

Re: old pegs and variability.  Even modern pegs that look only a little 
different or not at all different can sink way deeper or stick way out of 
the same hole.  Been there, done that.  When reaming for a peg, use 
extreme  caution when you're getting close - it's amazingly easy to go too 
far!!!  Old pegs tend to be even more variable, and HOPEFULLY haven't been 
switched around.  I suspect the old masters do what I do - designate a 
particular peg for a particular hole, and ream it to fit.

As for whether they're really 1:30 - only the god of HG's really 
knows.  Just about all the pegs I've ever seen have been, or close enough 
not to matter.  Final tapering is usually done with a peg shaper, and if 
it's set correctly, everything comes out right.  If not..... well, we'll 
discuss that after you check the pegs.

Alden


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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:36:49 -0800 (PST)
From: David Smith <dtsmithnet _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: [HG] Another HG for sale

Hello,
Ebay has another Hurdy Gurdy for sale.  This one is by
the French luthier Maxime Boireaud.  About a year ago
I purchased a luteback HG by Maxime Boireaud from
ebay.  I have fixed it up and adjusted it and it has
been playing fine ever since.  This one that is for
sale looks a little nicer than mine.  The tuning pins
are more refined as are the tangents and it comes with
an incredible looking leather carrying case.  With all
the talk about tuning pins and pegheads you might like
to take a look at the photos on ebay as there are
several close ups of the peghead.  Even if you aren't
interested in purchasing a HG the pictures are
interesting to look at.  Here is the address:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=854931386

Enjoy!
David Smith


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Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:26:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Roy Trotter <rtlhf _at_ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re: pegholes, pegs, & geared tuners


--- SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net> wrote:

> I am still wondering about the pegs though. Is there a way of
> refurbishing
> the shaft when it is showing little compression rings or is it better
> to
> turn a new peg? I would like to keep the old ones if at all possible.

When a guitaer or violin fingerboard gets pitted, or dipped from use,
repairmen frequently mix a compound of (the same type of wood) dust
with CA glue, fill the dips and sand flush. This is also done with
pegs. It works fine with ebony, Rosewood and similar dark woods.
Lighter woods will really show it 

> I was
> thinking of those things violin peg makers use that look like pencil
> sharpeners, but they look too short to accomodate a vielle peg.
> Hmmm...
> maybe I can make one.
> 
Most of the violin makers/repairmen (& women) I've spoken with regret
the expense of the peg sharpener they bought and wound up having to
make one anyway.

Later, Roy T.


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 17:52:34 -0800
From: Henry Boucher <boite _at_ sympatico.ca>
Subject: [HG] Pegs ,


   I forgot who was the maker of that instrument ,
was he ( or she ) a strict observer of the 1:30 law ?

   Disclaimer : I have never done the work that I will
describe , it is all spéculation .... so .

  I would be very much tempted to bring everything in strict
1:30 , unless it is a museum piece or if the maker was
a célébrity .

   I would bring the actual peg at 1;30  then make some dowels
drill them , ream the holes to 1:30 and glue the pegs in ,
and then bring the outside of the peg/dowell assembly at 1:30

   Ream the head holes oversize  to 1:30 ( or cylindrical with a
forstner
bit )  glue a  1:30 shaped dowell ( or cyl, with a proper dowel
maker bit )  drill the head and ... you guess the rest .
I feel that the future generations would thank me <g>

  One question left open : would I make the plug with the
wood grain paralell to the wood grain of the peg or with the
wood grain of the head ?   For the momment I would be tempted
to make it parallel to the head drain to be certain than wood
contraction would not induce cracks and to make the
job easier when trimming the excess of wood inside the
head cavity .

  But as I said , I have never actually done that work .
( I did plug the badly drilled holes in the head ,
it was easy with the drill press, just be carefull
when installing the work on the drillpress table
and have somebody else pull the handle while
I check the drill bit mouvement  )

Henry

BTW , Real ebony is a very bad choice of wood for pegs,
because the sap contains some chemical substances that
become chrystalline and acts like sand in the gears <g>
Same with some of the woods called " rosewood ". Dieyed
fruitwood ( like pear , actually most black piano keys
are pearwood ) is better .



= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 11:30:58 -0800
From: SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Pegs ,

Yikes! and I thought this was going to be a quick weekend project, luckily
there is no deadline.
Henry,The hurdy gurdy in question is a 1912 Pajot Jeune (Joseph Pajot)
which would make it likely to be a 30:1 taper. In my opinion worth taking
the extra care over, as far as staying with the integrity of the
instrument. The pegs are paired in three sizes, roughly two are 7.5cm, two
are 9cm and two are 9.5 cm, but the original positioning has been lost.
Right now, if you fit them in pairs they don't sit properly. I am also not
sure if the if the shorter ones are chantrelle pegs or the petit bourdon
and trompette pegs. I imagine the former. The four longer pegs still have
their centers marked, but the shorter ones have been cut down to size. I
have not checked their taper yet the way you suggested Alden, but will do
so today. Also, I guess I will be making some reamers.
Arle, I would love to have the drawing of the peg shaver, thanks for offering.
Roy, I have been using ebony dust  mixed with glue to fill in imperfections
when doing inlay,  I did not know you could doctor pegs with it. (I make
ebony dust with a belt sander, but I also know of someone who puts wood
shavings in a coffee grinder, tastes terrible). I have an instrument with
worn out black keys, they have depressions not on the sides or bottom,
where they slide through the keyholes but on the top. This may be just the
thing to fill them with.
Thanks to all of you for your input and assistance.
Juan




= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:01:07 -0500
From: arle lommel <arle _at_ lisa.org>
Subject: [HG] SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>

Juan,

I hope this helps. Basically what I am showing you is a pencil 
sharpener for pegs. The design isn't complete. partially because you 
will need to experiment a bit to make it suit your needs and it isn't 
worth my time (or yours) to specify the construction much further 
than I have in this drawing. (Note that the drawing is NOT to scale. 
There is no way for me to give you a scale with what knowledge I 
have.)

The drawing is attached as "sharpener.gif".

Note that, depending on the size(s) of your pegs you might have to 
make more than one of these contraptions.

The construction steps I see are:

1. Square a block of wood large enough to contain the tapered portion 
of the peg you want to shave with walls at least 3 mm thick. I would 
make this out of rock maple if it is available, simply because it is 
hard and most shops seem to have scraps of it around. Alternatively 
any wood that is truly hard and tight grained would work: walnut 
might be good.

2. This is the tricky part. Drill a pilot hole through the length of 
the wood such that when you ream it one edge of the hole will be 
parallel to the length of the wood (see the drawing). You need to 
make sure that one edge is parallel to make adjusting the blade 
easier when the time comes.

3. Cut out a squared section lengthwise from the wooden block as per 
the drawing. What you want is for the part the blade will sit on to 
just touch the circumference of the circle so that when you put the 
blade in place it will just barely shave the peg in the hole. Make 
sure that you leave a gap for shavings to clear the tool, as shown in 
the drawing and also that you have cleared the lip of the blade shelf 
back from the gap just slightly. I would make these cuts using a 
router (making an appropriate carrier for the piece since it is 
small) in various passes taking out the tiniest amount with each pass 
until just enough is cut away, but use the means and tools you think 
best. Getting this cut out square and clean is vital.

Just make sure that you work safely since small pieces put your hands 
near tools. My worst wood working injury was on a piece this small 
using a hand tools (I almost cut a tendon in my finger with a chisel).

4. Using a file put a bevel into the *non-toothed* edge of a hacksaw 
blade and then sharpen this as you would any cutting tool. Cut it to 
the length of your cutter bed (this isn't critical but it helps to 
keep extra bits out of the way.) Make sure that you keep a straight 
edge on the blade as you sharpen it.

5. How you want to fasten the blade to its bed is up to you. I would 
probably drill oversized holes in it and then use machine screws into 
the wood (pre-drill the holes for them) with washers to hold it. 
Whatever you do (small clamps might work too) you need to be able to 
adjust the blade yet still hold it firmly in place.

6. Using trial pieces of wood with the appropriate taper cut in them 
turn them as you would in a pencil sharpener and slowly adjust the 
blade toward the dowel (obviously stopping the turning while you 
adjust the blade) until you get even powdery shavings along the 
entire length of the blade. At this point you should be able to try 
your pegs in it. If you find that one end of the blade cuts more than 
the other back that end out just slightly. The design I have drawn 
should hold the peg firmly enough that the only variable in cutting 
should be the blade position.


You will likely have to experiment with this design. You might find 
that other methods work better (if you could center the pegs on a 
lathe I still think sanding them would work better) but this is one 
option.

Let me know if you have any questions. (If you run into trouble, take 
a look at a pencil sharpener and you can probably figure it out.)

Regards,

-Arle
-- 



= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:09:44 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Pegs ,


Juan,

C'est moi, Alden.


>Arle, I would love to have the drawing of the peg shaver, thanks for offering.

There's a nice description of a peg shaper in H.S. Wake's book on 
violinmaking, "The Technique of Violin Making", on page 71.  Unfortunately 
I've never encountered a hardware store that supplies 1/8" x 1" tool steel, 
but no matter, we have a source.  He does discuss hardening and tempering 
the blade, but I've found other ways to do it than he describes, and would 
recommend those to you off list (unless there's general interest in such.)

I find that Wake is correct in his assessment of the commercial peg shaper 
- I've never gotten mine to work well, despite substantial adjustment and 
having paid a lot of money for it.  The one Wake design that I have works 
very well, and I need to make more in different sizes.

Alden 



= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:51:10 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] Re: pegholes, pegs, & geared tuners




>Without seeing the pegs it is kind of hard to tell what you should do with 
>them. If you can center the pegs on a lathe you could go at them with some 
>sand paper to sand past the ridges, but getting them centered is going to 
>be the trick. If you had a four-jaw chuck with fully independent jaws you 
>could do it through a trial and error process, but that might be more than 
>you want to do (and, if you aren't careful you could damage the head on 
>the peg with the chuck jaws). If you're lucky you might find one of the 
>original center points still in the peg as a conical depression, and that 
>could help center them.

Though there are ways of holding the pegs without damage, a peg shaper 
would be a better alternative here.

Re: Gorilla Glue.  It's wonderful stuff, but I don't think it would stand 
up to the kind of torque we're talking about in a friction peg.

Alden





= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:59:07 -0800
From: Alden & Cali Hackmann <hurdy _at_ silverlink.net>
Subject: Re: [HG] SB/JW <duodrone _at_ earthlink.net>


This drawing looks very similar to Wake's.

Alden 


      

			
 

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